http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/02/miltonheads-unite/ Thu, 12 Jan 2012 08:40:04 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/02/miltonheads-unite/#comment-2934 Troy Camplin, Ph.D. Wed, 27 Feb 2008 18:46:54 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=727#comment-2934 I just find it hard to believe that anyone can effectively teach something when they have the attitude toward the work Gee has. I find it very likely that bad attitude is going to be passed on. I have no sympathy with the politics behind throwing out the great works - precisely because that's going to be the result. Why can't we rather be more inclusive rather than be exclusive? I never had the great works of the West replaced by the great works of the East (I had to read those on my own too) or the great works of men replaced by the great works of women. Rather, I found that great works in general were replaced with contemporary garbage (which were also typically written by Western white males -- so I don't know what the big change was really all about, in the end). With the exception of The Great Gatsby (which I loved from the get-go), high school teachers mostly assigned the worst garbage they could find. I wasn't assigned much that was good until college, and all of that was 19th and 20th century works. I got the real garbage in grad school. Personally, I'll all for popularizing classics. I thought that the Beowulf film was an attempt to tell the "real" story behind the myth, resulting in a bit of a diminution of the hero, but that it was overall okay. I also think that "Troy" failed precisely because they tried to give it a Hollywood ending, where the bad guys all got theirs, even though they defeated Troy. Too bad, because they cut themselves off from an interesting sequel with Agammemnon. Still, if these movies got some people to go out and read the works, then I'm all in favor of even a bad movie. I just find it hard to believe that anyone can effectively teach something when they have the attitude toward the work Gee has. I find it very likely that bad attitude is going to be passed on. I have no sympathy with the politics behind throwing out the great works – precisely because that’s going to be the result. Why can’t we rather be more inclusive rather than be exclusive? I never had the great works of the West replaced by the great works of the East (I had to read those on my own too) or the great works of men replaced by the great works of women. Rather, I found that great works in general were replaced with contemporary garbage (which were also typically written by Western white males — so I don’t know what the big change was really all about, in the end). With the exception of The Great Gatsby (which I loved from the get-go), high school teachers mostly assigned the worst garbage they could find. I wasn’t assigned much that was good until college, and all of that was 19th and 20th century works. I got the real garbage in grad school.
Personally, I’ll all for popularizing classics. I thought that the Beowulf film was an attempt to tell the “real” story behind the myth, resulting in a bit of a diminution of the hero, but that it was overall okay. I also think that “Troy” failed precisely because they tried to give it a Hollywood ending, where the bad guys all got theirs, even though they defeated Troy. Too bad, because they cut themselves off from an interesting sequel with Agammemnon. Still, if these movies got some people to go out and read the works, then I’m all in favor of even a bad movie.
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]]> http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/02/miltonheads-unite/#comment-2933 Daisy Wed, 27 Feb 2008 12:48:59 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=727#comment-2933 Troy-- I just want to make clear that I'm not criticizing Gee's teaching--I've never been in her classroom, so can't judge--nor am I indicting all of higher education, which is too various a beast to characterize easily. Like Gee, I'm all for popularizing classics, especially when the popularizations are good art in their own right. As I said, I simply don't think you need to falsify the original to do so. I think there's room for both. As many of the comments above indicate, lots of people, including teenagers, find Milton, gasp, fun! I do agree that it's a shame many schools have thrown out core curriculum/great books courses, though I certainly sympathize with the politics behind doing that. I've done a lot of filling in, myself, since I was an undergrad (never a grad) in the late 80s. The advantage, as you point out, is that one appreciates it so much more when one reads because one feels like it, not because it's assigned. Isn't there a scene in Hard Times where learning is ground into the children so mechanically that it becomes meaningless and garbled? I'm guessing that Gee's against that sort of teaching, and so am I. Daisy Troy–
I just want to make clear that I’m not criticizing Gee’s teaching–I’ve never been in her classroom, so can’t judge–nor am I indicting all of higher education, which is too various a beast to characterize easily. Like Gee, I’m all for popularizing classics, especially when the popularizations are good art in their own right. As I said, I simply don’t think you need to falsify the original to do so. I think there’s room for both. As many of the comments above indicate, lots of people, including teenagers, find Milton, gasp, fun! I do agree that it’s a shame many schools have thrown out core curriculum/great books courses, though I certainly sympathize with the politics behind doing that. I’ve done a lot of filling in, myself, since I was an undergrad (never a grad) in the late 80s. The advantage, as you point out, is that one appreciates it so much more when one reads because one feels like it, not because it’s assigned. Isn’t there a scene in Hard Times where learning is ground into the children so mechanically that it becomes meaningless and garbled? I’m guessing that Gee’s against that sort of teaching, and so am I.
Daisy
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]]> http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/02/miltonheads-unite/#comment-2932 Troy Camplin, Ph.D. Wed, 27 Feb 2008 00:01:25 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=727#comment-2932 If this is Gee's opinion of two of the greatest, most important works of literature, I absolutely would not want her teaching my children about literature. Her attitude expresses everything that is wrong with higher education in this country. In fact, I have come to realize that it is because of people like her teaching literature that I have had to play catch-up ever since I graduated with my Ph.D. There should be no excuse for having someone graduate with a Ph.D. in the humanities who has not read The Iliad, The Odyssey, The Aeneid, Dante's Divine Comedy . . . I could go on and on, but that's the bizarre situation I was in and am still working to rectify. Fortunately, I am motivated to catch up on all the things I was made to miss, but how many, especially those not majoring in the humanities, will do that? Yet Gee is out there "teaching" students literature -- in fact, teaching them to hate it. If this is Gee’s opinion of two of the greatest, most important works of literature, I absolutely would not want her teaching my children about literature. Her attitude expresses everything that is wrong with higher education in this country. In fact, I have come to realize that it is because of people like her teaching literature that I have had to play catch-up ever since I graduated with my Ph.D. There should be no excuse for having someone graduate with a Ph.D. in the humanities who has not read The Iliad, The Odyssey, The Aeneid, Dante’s Divine Comedy . . . I could go on and on, but that’s the bizarre situation I was in and am still working to rectify. Fortunately, I am motivated to catch up on all the things I was made to miss, but how many, especially those not majoring in the humanities, will do that? Yet Gee is out there “teaching” students literature — in fact, teaching them to hate it.
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]]> http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/02/miltonheads-unite/#comment-2931 john Tue, 26 Feb 2008 19:54:01 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=727#comment-2931 Daisy, It's line 283 in Comus. Comus has found the Fair Lady alone in the forest: <a href="http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/%7Erbear/comus.html" rel="nofollow">http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/%7Erbear/comus.html</a> Co. What chance good Lady hath bereft you thus? La. Dim darknes, and this leavy Labyrinth. Co. Could that divide you from neer-ushering guides? 280 La. They left me weary on a grassie terf. Co. By falshood, or discourtesie, or why? La. To seek i'th vally som cool friendly Spring. Co. And left your fair side all unguarded Lady? La. They were but twain, and purpos'd quick return. Co. Perhaps fore-stalling night prevented them. La. How easie my misfortune is to hit! Co. Imports their loss, beside the present need? La. No less then if I should my brothers loose. Co. Were they of manly prime, or youthful bloom? 290 La. As smooth as Hebe's their unrazor'd lips. Comus is a masque, and masques were formally comedies, so maybe the bantering iambic rhythm would play fine in a bantering mood, I'm not sure. There are some lovely passages in Comus, and some powerful lines in Lycidas. Contrary to what I mistakenly said before, I don't require joy in my Christian poems. "Batter my heart, three-personed God" (Donne's Holy Sonnet 14) is hardly joyous -- but it is moving. It's just -- "hideous hum" and "hollow shriek" are bad propaganda poetry; if you like the propaganda, fine, but it's still bad poetry. I am curious to read Empson's account of Milton's Christianity. And I will give P.L. a shot. Thanks again. Daisy,
It’s line 283 in Comus. Comus has found the Fair Lady alone in the forest:
http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/%7Erbear/comus.html
Co. What chance good Lady hath bereft you thus?
La. Dim darknes, and this leavy Labyrinth.
Co. Could that divide you from neer-ushering guides? 280
La. They left me weary on a grassie terf.
Co. By falshood, or discourtesie, or why?
La. To seek i’th vally som cool friendly Spring.
Co. And left your fair side all unguarded Lady?
La. They were but twain, and purpos’d quick return.
Co. Perhaps fore-stalling night prevented them.
La. How easie my misfortune is to hit!
Co. Imports their loss, beside the present need?
La. No less then if I should my brothers loose.
Co. Were they of manly prime, or youthful bloom? 290
La. As smooth as Hebe’s their unrazor’d lips.
Comus is a masque, and masques were formally comedies, so maybe the bantering iambic rhythm would play fine in a bantering mood, I’m not sure. There are some lovely passages in Comus, and some powerful lines in Lycidas.
Contrary to what I mistakenly said before, I don’t require joy in my Christian poems. “Batter my heart, three-personed God” (Donne’s Holy Sonnet 14) is hardly joyous — but it is moving. It’s just — “hideous hum” and “hollow shriek” are bad propaganda poetry; if you like the propaganda, fine, but it’s still bad poetry. I am curious to read Empson’s account of Milton’s Christianity. And I will give P.L. a shot. Thanks again.
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]]> http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/02/miltonheads-unite/#comment-2930 Susan McLean Tue, 26 Feb 2008 19:32:42 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=727#comment-2930 I first read Milton in high school, took a course on him during my freshman year in college, and later taught him regularly in a British literature survey course in college. He's someone I find personally uncongenial but poetically impressive, and each time I teach him I have a few students who really fall in love with PL. For me, many of his lines are unforgettable--hear them once and they become part of you forever. PL is incredibly cinematic in how it tells the story--for a blind writer, he certainly was visual in how he told the story. The weight of all that learning is often oppressive (in a way that it usually isn't in Shakespeare, for instance, who also is full of allusions), but the passion in the lines is undeniable. I first read Milton in high school, took a course on him during my freshman year in college, and later taught him regularly in a British literature survey course in college. He’s someone I find personally uncongenial but poetically impressive, and each time I teach him I have a few students who really fall in love with PL. For me, many of his lines are unforgettable–hear them once and they become part of you forever. PL is incredibly cinematic in how it tells the story–for a blind writer, he certainly was visual in how he told the story. The weight of all that learning is often oppressive (in a way that it usually isn’t in Shakespeare, for instance, who also is full of allusions), but the passion in the lines is undeniable.
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]]> http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/02/miltonheads-unite/#comment-2929 Daisy Tue, 26 Feb 2008 15:27:19 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=727#comment-2929 John--I'm not sure asking a writer not given to religious joy to express religious joy makes a lot of sense. It's like asking Hemingway to put in more adjectives, or something. I mean, you may prefer a lusher writer than Hemingway as a matter of taste, and a more rapturous writer than Milton, but not doing Christian joy, or adjectives, is not a fault. As for his attitude "to life"--don't forget Milton's anti-censorship prose pamphlet, "Areopagitica" not to mention his complicated and interesting approach to theology and to his characters. I think you're reading pretty ahistorically in the passages you cite. As for the supposedly padded line, "And left your fair side all unguarded, lady?" without looking up the line, it sounds to me like he's not talking about leaving the side of her body, but rather, leaving being beside her, whom he finds fair. It's rather compressed, not padded. I don't know the recording Bill's talking about, but it sounds miserable. The lines in Milton are load-bearing walls, and a lot of the aural excitement comes from all that mass straining to contain itself while pouring onward down the page. You wouldn't want an end-stop for each line, but you do want somebody who understands he's reading poetry, and acknowledges what's going on in the language. Alicia--Not really on topic, but do you know James Richardson's poem "A Suite for Lucretians"? It's in his new & selected volume, Interglacial. I think you'd really like it. Daisy John–I’m not sure asking a writer not given to religious joy to express religious joy makes a lot of sense. It’s like asking Hemingway to put in more adjectives, or something. I mean, you may prefer a lusher writer than Hemingway as a matter of taste, and a more rapturous writer than Milton, but not doing Christian joy, or adjectives, is not a fault. As for his attitude “to life”–don’t forget Milton’s anti-censorship prose pamphlet, “Areopagitica” not to mention his complicated and interesting approach to theology and to his characters. I think you’re reading pretty ahistorically in the passages you cite. As for the supposedly padded line, “And left your fair side all unguarded, lady?” without looking up the line, it sounds to me like he’s not talking about leaving the side of her body, but rather, leaving being beside her, whom he finds fair. It’s rather compressed, not padded.
I don’t know the recording Bill’s talking about, but it sounds miserable. The lines in Milton are load-bearing walls, and a lot of the aural excitement comes from all that mass straining to contain itself while pouring onward down the page. You wouldn’t want an end-stop for each line, but you do want somebody who understands he’s reading poetry, and acknowledges what’s going on in the language.
Alicia–Not really on topic, but do you know James Richardson’s poem “A Suite for Lucretians”? It’s in his new & selected volume, Interglacial. I think you’d really like it.
Daisy
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]]> http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/02/miltonheads-unite/#comment-2928 Aaron Fagan Mon, 25 Feb 2008 19:02:23 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=727#comment-2928 With respect to Mr. Knott's observation about his Quayle (perhaps related to Dan?) recording not observing the ends of lines ... not bothering with them is the sort of thing Mr. Pinsky advises in his book The Sounds of Poetry. Frankly I think it is a balancing act and a good poem let's you know how to read it. I don't hear the poetry in the strapped-on, sing-song-breathy-poet-voice readings and I don't hear it in the ones that rip through it like prose. Can't say I have an alternative to recommend. One of the latest is by Ralph Cosham which came out a little more than a year ago. With respect to Mr. Knott’s observation about his Quayle (perhaps related to Dan?) recording not observing the ends of lines … not bothering with them is the sort of thing Mr. Pinsky advises in his book The Sounds of Poetry. Frankly I think it is a balancing act and a good poem let’s you know how to read it. I don’t hear the poetry in the strapped-on, sing-song-breathy-poet-voice readings and I don’t hear it in the ones that rip through it like prose. Can’t say I have an alternative to recommend. One of the latest is by Ralph Cosham which came out a little more than a year ago.
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]]> http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/02/miltonheads-unite/#comment-2927 Don Share Mon, 25 Feb 2008 16:47:23 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=727#comment-2927 Aaron, great point! Here's one <a href="http://www.dartmouth.edu/~milton/reading_room/pl/book_1/index.shtml" rel="nofollow">useful hyperlinked version</a>. Aaron, great point! Here’s one useful hyperlinked version.
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]]> http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/02/miltonheads-unite/#comment-2926 Aaron Fagan Mon, 25 Feb 2008 16:22:50 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=727#comment-2926 We live in the age of DVD extras. With the wide variety of online resources, Paradise Lost is the ultimate Google poem. In fact the whole poem could hyperlinked. And it could inspire the dawn of new technology--a multihyperlink featuring the shades of meaning you wish to explore. We live in the age of DVD extras. With the wide variety of online resources, Paradise Lost is the ultimate Google poem. In fact the whole poem could hyperlinked. And it could inspire the dawn of new technology–a multihyperlink featuring the shades of meaning you wish to explore.
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]]> http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/02/miltonheads-unite/#comment-2925 Don Share Mon, 25 Feb 2008 16:01:16 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=727#comment-2925 Bill, I've not heard them, but there's an audiobook of P.L. by Ralph Cosham... and excerpts can be heard on one by Samantha Bond just out on Naxos, in their "Great Poets" series. Bill, I’ve not heard them, but there’s an audiobook of P.L. by Ralph Cosham… and excerpts can be heard on one by Samantha Bond just out on Naxos, in their “Great Poets” series.
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]]> http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/02/miltonheads-unite/#comment-2924 J.E. Stone Mon, 25 Feb 2008 14:18:32 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=727#comment-2924 Hooray--how great to hear a cheer for Paradise Lost! Book I, in particular, is my favorite. I've taught Book I to high school sophomores, and they loved it, for all the reasons Daisy cites. What language! What syntactical feats! What villains! What great description! What vividness! I have a cousin with a degree in international relations (not an English major) who also reads PL for fun. Of course it's readable, no less so than Shakespeare. And no one's talking about getting rid of him. Shakespeare's comedies are incredibly difficult to understand--the jokes depend oftentimes on puns and other word play that rely on much older, defunct meanings of words, or on an understanding of Renaissance culture. I've frequently been the only person laughing during the production of a Shakespeare comedy, and I live in a major metropolitan area with a highly educated population. Ban Shakespeare's comedies! Save Milton! Hooray–how great to hear a cheer for Paradise Lost! Book I, in particular, is my favorite. I’ve taught Book I to high school sophomores, and they loved it, for all the reasons Daisy cites. What language! What syntactical feats! What villains! What great description! What vividness! I have a cousin with a degree in international relations (not an English major) who also reads PL for fun.
Of course it’s readable, no less so than Shakespeare. And no one’s talking about getting rid of him. Shakespeare’s comedies are incredibly difficult to understand–the jokes depend oftentimes on puns and other word play that rely on much older, defunct meanings of words, or on an understanding of Renaissance culture. I’ve frequently been the only person laughing during the production of a Shakespeare comedy, and I live in a major metropolitan area with a highly educated population.
Ban Shakespeare’s comedies! Save Milton!
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]]> http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/02/miltonheads-unite/#comment-2923 Matt Mon, 25 Feb 2008 12:45:43 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=727#comment-2923 Wouldn't hearing the linebreaks get old after a while? Like watching a whole movie with a bad DVD that makes it pause every 3 seconds.... Wouldn’t hearing the linebreaks get old after a while? Like watching a whole movie with a bad DVD that makes it pause every 3 seconds….
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]]> http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/02/miltonheads-unite/#comment-2922 Alicia (AE) Mon, 25 Feb 2008 06:06:26 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=727#comment-2922 Thanks for posting this! I'm a bit shocked here... Surely a professor of 18th century literature cannot seriously call Milton "virtually unreadable"? Surely students at Princeton of all places can handle a little complication in their syntax? I never took a college course on Milton--I wasn't an English major--but we did read a good section of it in high school, and I think the class all found the psychology of Adam & Eve & Satan pretty fascinating, even if we didn't get every reference (for which, anyway, now in an age of Google--much less footnotes--is there any excuse?). Sure, there was difficulty, but it was rewarding difficulty. As readers have we all got lazy? I sometimes think that looking at a lot of contemporary poetry, where even if it is radically "innovative", the syntax is hardly more complex than Go, Dog. Go! I wouldn't exactly call Milton's English "normal" though--so much of the structures and syntax are essentially Latin--but it is certainly intelligible as English. My interest in PL was renewed in translating Lucretius, since it was clear to me that M. must have been quite heavily influenced by L.'s style and subject matter. In a way, this is odd, because L., as a near-atheistic materialist and believer in free will, is on the opposite side of the spectrum from Providential Puritans. But at the same time he seemed to hold an enormous appeal. Even in the passages you quote here, I hear a lot of L.: O goddess, from you the winds flee away, the couds of heaven from you and your coming; for you the wonder-working earth puts forth sweet flowers, for you the wide stretches of ocean laugh, and heaven grown peaceful glows with outpoured light. Anyway, the point being, I've been dipping back into PL in that sort of scholarly interest, and I do find myself getting caught back up in it--and always deligthed to rediscover how <i>readable</i> it is! You make me want to reread it cover to cover now... Thanks for posting this!
I’m a bit shocked here… Surely a professor of 18th century literature cannot seriously call Milton “virtually unreadable”? Surely students at Princeton of all places can handle a little complication in their syntax? I never took a college course on Milton–I wasn’t an English major–but we did read a good section of it in high school, and I think the class all found the psychology of Adam & Eve & Satan pretty fascinating, even if we didn’t get every reference (for which, anyway, now in an age of Google–much less footnotes–is there any excuse?). Sure, there was difficulty, but it was rewarding difficulty. As readers have we all got lazy? I sometimes think that looking at a lot of contemporary poetry, where even if it is radically “innovative”, the syntax is hardly more complex than Go, Dog. Go!
I wouldn’t exactly call Milton’s English “normal” though–so much of the structures and syntax are essentially Latin–but it is certainly intelligible as English.
My interest in PL was renewed in translating Lucretius, since it was clear to me that M. must have been quite heavily influenced by L.’s style and subject matter. In a way, this is odd, because L., as a near-atheistic materialist and believer in free will, is on the opposite side of the spectrum from Providential Puritans. But at the same time he seemed to hold an enormous appeal. Even in the passages you quote here, I hear a lot of L.:
O goddess, from you the winds flee away, the couds of heaven from you and your coming; for you the wonder-working earth puts forth sweet flowers, for you the wide stretches of ocean laugh, and heaven grown peaceful glows with outpoured light.
Anyway, the point being, I’ve been dipping back into PL in that sort of scholarly interest, and I do find myself getting caught back up in it–and always deligthed to rediscover how readable it is! You make me want to reread it cover to cover now…
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]]> http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/02/miltonheads-unite/#comment-2921 bill knott Sun, 24 Feb 2008 20:07:48 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=727#comment-2921 ... I used to try to listen via a walkperson to a tape of the first couple books of PL as read by the British actor Anthony Quayle, but irritatingly he didn't read the linebreaks which made me usually snatch the earphones out in exasp. Can anybody recommend a good recording of it, one that honors each and every blanking great Miltonic line? … I used to try to listen via a walkperson to a tape of the
first couple books of PL as read by the British actor Anthony
Quayle,
but irritatingly he didn’t read the linebreaks which
made me usually snatch the earphones out in exasp.
Can anybody recommend a good recording of it, one
that honors each and every blanking great Miltonic line?
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]]> http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/02/miltonheads-unite/#comment-2920 John Blackard Sun, 24 Feb 2008 19:55:22 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=727#comment-2920 Daisy-- I agree that it is a shame Milton's Paradise Lost isn't read much outside of the college classroom. The epic, operatic grandeur of it is amazing. I admit that I look at Blake's illustrations of Paradise Lost more often than I dip into Milton's blank verse: <a href="http://www.pitt.edu/~ulin/Paradise/Blake1808.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.pitt.edu/~ulin/Paradise/Blake1808.htm</a> John Blackard www.johnablackard.com Daisy– I agree that it is a shame Milton’s Paradise Lost isn’t read much outside of the college classroom. The epic, operatic grandeur of it is amazing. I admit that I look at Blake’s illustrations of Paradise Lost more often than I dip into Milton’s blank verse:
http://www.pitt.edu/~ulin/Paradise/Blake1808.htm
John Blackard
http://www.johnablackard.com
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]]> http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/02/miltonheads-unite/#comment-2919 Don Share Sun, 24 Feb 2008 19:24:44 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=727#comment-2919 Great post, and a favorite subject! I worked for many years with the elderly, and used to get groups of older folks to read "Lycidas" all the way though without anything to work with but the poem itself. After they got over the initial shock, virtually every last soul "got" the poem... and added to my own understanding of it. Any fans here of William Empson's wild book, <i>Milton's God</i>?? Great post, and a favorite subject! I worked for many years with the elderly, and used to get groups of older folks to read “Lycidas” all the way though without anything to work with but the poem itself. After they got over the initial shock, virtually every last soul “got” the poem… and added to my own understanding of it.
Any fans here of William Empson’s wild book, Milton’s God??
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]]> http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/02/miltonheads-unite/#comment-2918 john Sun, 24 Feb 2008 19:23:00 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=727#comment-2918 p.s. I apologize for calling Milton "disgusting." The threat of rape in "Lycidas" is appalling, alarming, horrible. Other than that I have found him to be very uncongenial, but "disgusting" is too combative. p.s. I apologize for calling Milton “disgusting.” The threat of rape in “Lycidas” is appalling, alarming, horrible. Other than that I have found him to be very uncongenial, but “disgusting” is too combative.
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]]> http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/02/miltonheads-unite/#comment-2917 john Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:43:19 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=727#comment-2917 My wish for religious joy in Milton's Christmas poem may be somewhat anachronistic, dependent on the sentimental Christian/Christmas tradition I grew up in; except: that passage in Luke remains joyous. Glory to God in the Highest Heaven, and on Earth, peace, and goodwill among all people. Milton digs the Glory; the peace and the goodwill, not so much. I find no psychological acuity in his Christmas poem either. Donne and Hopkins can be psychologically acute and religiously persuasive, with a painfully won joy. Milton's god may as well be Klingon, all honor and violence and triumph. (Since Daisy put him in sci-fi fantasy terms.) I'll PL a shot. At least books I-IV ! My wish for religious joy in Milton’s Christmas poem may be somewhat anachronistic, dependent on the sentimental Christian/Christmas tradition I grew up in; except: that passage in Luke remains joyous. Glory to God in the Highest Heaven, and on Earth, peace, and goodwill among all people. Milton digs the Glory; the peace and the goodwill, not so much.
I find no psychological acuity in his Christmas poem either. Donne and Hopkins can be psychologically acute and religiously persuasive, with a painfully won joy. Milton’s god may as well be Klingon, all honor and violence and triumph. (Since Daisy put him in sci-fi fantasy terms.)
I’ll PL a shot. At least books I-IV !
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]]> http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/02/miltonheads-unite/#comment-2916 Aseem Kaul Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:40:20 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=727#comment-2916 Entirely with you. I never took a course on Milton in college, or on poetry for that matter (my undergraduate major was Economics), but I read PL for pleasure and enjoyed it thoroughly. I'll admit to running low on stamina towards the end, and may have skipped bits of Book X, but I adore Books I to IV and read them every few years. As for their being no 'religious joy' in his poems - I agree - and think they are better for it. I'll take psychological accuracy over ideological clarity any day. Entirely with you. I never took a course on Milton in college, or on poetry for that matter (my undergraduate major was Economics), but I read PL for pleasure and enjoyed it thoroughly. I’ll admit to running low on stamina towards the end, and may have skipped bits of Book X, but I adore Books I to IV and read them every few years.
As for their being no ‘religious joy’ in his poems – I agree – and think they are better for it. I’ll take psychological accuracy over ideological clarity any day.
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]]> http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/02/miltonheads-unite/#comment-2915 Marty Elwell Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:07:15 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=727#comment-2915 There are people reading Milton, and I am one of them. While I did take a class on Milton about 12 years ago, I find PL worth picking up every now and then (even if only in bits and pieces). I agree that PL’s plot is entertaining and worthwhile. If Milton were truly inaccessible, I don't think such pop-culture references to PL as in Animal House would exist. "Is Satan trying to tell us that being bad is more fun than being good?" More people laugh at this joke than you would expect. As far as "religious joy", I don't view PL as a poem of praise. For example, there are portions of the poem depicting heaven to be a military state: ...Tow'rs of Heav'n are fill'd With Armed watch, that render all access Impregnable; oft on the bordering Deep Encamp thir Legions, or with obscure wing Scout far and wide into the Realm of night, Scorning surprise. and God to be an angry and vengeful foe: Will he, so wise, let lose at once his ire, Belike through impotence, or unaware, To give his Enemies thir wish, and end Them in his anger, whom his anger saves To punish endless? I find it unlikely that a writer intending to glorify God would take the time and care to humanize him and his relationships with Adam and Even and his enemies. Lastly, I’ll allow some padding to anyone willing to write 250+ pages of meter. There are people reading Milton, and I am one of them. While I did take a class on Milton about 12 years ago, I find PL worth picking up every now and then (even if only in bits and pieces).
I agree that PL’s plot is entertaining and worthwhile. If Milton were truly inaccessible, I don’t think such pop-culture references to PL as in Animal House would exist. “Is Satan trying to tell us that being bad is more fun than being good?” More people laugh at this joke than you would expect.
As far as “religious joy”, I don’t view PL as a poem of praise. For example, there are portions of the poem depicting heaven to be a military state:
…Tow’rs of Heav’n are fill’d
With Armed watch, that render all access
Impregnable; oft on the bordering Deep
Encamp thir Legions, or with obscure wing
Scout far and wide into the Realm of night,
Scorning surprise.
and God to be an angry and vengeful foe:
Will he, so wise, let lose at once his ire,
Belike through impotence, or unaware,
To give his Enemies thir wish, and end
Them in his anger, whom his anger saves
To punish endless?
I find it unlikely that a writer intending to glorify God would take the time and care to humanize him and his relationships with Adam and Even and his enemies.
Lastly, I’ll allow some padding to anyone willing to write 250+ pages of meter.
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]]> http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/02/miltonheads-unite/#comment-2914 john Sun, 24 Feb 2008 16:17:29 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=727#comment-2914 I've never taken a Milton course but I've read the English poetic corpus except the Paradises. I don't know why I did it. It's not that he's forbidding. I find his attitude toward life and poetry disgusting. The oracles are dumb, No voice or hideous hum ]]] Runs through the arched roof in words deceiving. Apollo from his shrine Can no more divine, ]]] With hollow shriek the steep of Delphos leaving. "On the Morning of Christ's Nativity" (backwards brackets to indicate indented lines [Note to the Poetry Foundation: Any possibility of you investing in some easily available computer code to make line indentation easy for poetry in online typography?] Take or leave Christianity, there's never any religious joy in the poem, unlike with say, Smart or dozens of Christmas carols or the Bible. The only persuasive emotion is grim triumph in the defeat of paganism -- and even that is unconvincing. "Hideous hum" and "shriek" are both false, poetically and imaginatively. Begin then, Sisters of the sacred well That from beneath the seat of Jove doth spring, Begin, and somewhat loudly sweet the string. Hence with denial vain, and coy excuse; . . . "Lycidas" Problems? First, and disgusting, is the vision of the muses as coquettes ("coy excuse"), horribly preceded by the threat of rape. "Denial vain" means there's no use in saying No. The mind boggles. In lesser emotionally upsetting arenas, "somewhat" is a pointless modifier -- pure iambic padding. And then there's the grotesquely, comically urinary vision of "That from beneath the seat of Jove doth spring." The sacred well as outhouse. Violations against religion, prosody, and humanity in only four lines! His most comical iambic padding comes in "Comus": "And left your fair side all unguarded, lady?" The phrase "fair side all" is pure padding. But it does have a beefy ring. A side of lady! Also, pre-echoes of Jerry Lewis. "Lady? Lady!" Sorry to be so disagreeable -- but nobody I know reads Milton at all, and the opportunity to discuss him comes rarely. Everybody says that Paradise Lost is his best, so maybe I should give him another try, and some of the lines you quote intrigue. Thanks. I’ve never taken a Milton course but I’ve read the English poetic corpus except the Paradises. I don’t know why I did it. It’s not that he’s forbidding. I find his attitude toward life and poetry disgusting.
The oracles are dumb,
No voice or hideous hum
]]] Runs through the arched roof in words deceiving.
Apollo from his shrine
Can no more divine,
]]] With hollow shriek the steep of Delphos leaving.
“On the Morning of Christ’s Nativity”
(backwards brackets to indicate indented lines [Note to the Poetry Foundation: Any possibility of you investing in some easily available computer code to make line indentation easy for poetry in online typography?]
Take or leave Christianity, there’s never any religious joy in the poem, unlike with say, Smart or dozens of Christmas carols or the Bible. The only persuasive emotion is grim triumph in the defeat of paganism — and even that is unconvincing. “Hideous hum” and “shriek” are both false, poetically and imaginatively.
Begin then, Sisters of the sacred well
That from beneath the seat of Jove doth spring,
Begin, and somewhat loudly sweet the string.
Hence with denial vain, and coy excuse; . . .
“Lycidas”
Problems? First, and disgusting, is the vision of the muses as coquettes (“coy excuse”), horribly preceded by the threat of rape. “Denial vain” means there’s no use in saying No. The mind boggles. In lesser emotionally upsetting arenas, “somewhat” is a pointless modifier — pure iambic padding. And then there’s the grotesquely, comically urinary vision of “That from beneath the seat of Jove doth spring.” The sacred well as outhouse. Violations against religion, prosody, and humanity in only four lines!
His most comical iambic padding comes in “Comus”:
“And left your fair side all unguarded, lady?”
The phrase “fair side all” is pure padding. But it does have a beefy ring. A side of lady! Also, pre-echoes of Jerry Lewis. “Lady? Lady!”
Sorry to be so disagreeable — but nobody I know reads Milton at all, and the opportunity to discuss him comes rarely. Everybody says that Paradise Lost is his best, so maybe I should give him another try, and some of the lines you quote intrigue. Thanks.
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