Comments on: Left of Karl Marx (Part II)

By: john

john — Wed, 16 Jul 2008 18:05:21 +0000

De Man’s wicked history seemed resonant in a discussion, the occasion of which is the attempt at a recovery from historical oblivion of a Stalinist poet. De Man’s unconfessed past particularly invites psychological readings. I do find metaphors of “innocence” and “evil” as descriptors of reading to be lurid and neither intellectually rigorous (to use that metaphor so fetishized by the deconstructionists) nor illuminating (not to bring religion into it . . . ).
But, yes, I agree — this does not negate your broader point — that poems hold historical and ideological interest as well.
“Aesthetic value is something of a mystery.” Yes!

By: Michael Robbins

Michael Robbins — Wed, 16 Jul 2008 15:51:54 +0000

No problem — I own up to being a pain in the ass!
I certainly didn’t mean to foreclose the possibility of aesthetic response — only to note that the point of Mark’s post seemed larger than such a response. Didn’t mean to scold, ya heard?
Of course I acknowledge my aesthetic interest in poetry — it seems tautological to do so. Who, who reads poems, doesn’t read them for aesthetic pleasure? I do think, though, that what “aesthetic response” is is a complex &, uh, overdetermined question, worth, uh, interrogating. I don’t think it’s transparent. Aesthetic value is something of a mystery.
It seems to be required to drag up de Man’s fascist-sympathizing credentials whenever he’s mentioned. I have nothing original to say about that tired debate. It’s certainly possible that there’s a relationship between his insistence on “the absolute randomness of language” & the “evil” instantiated by reading & his having written in support of evil when he was young. But I do not believe it negates what he says in the passage I quoted.

By: john

john — Wed, 16 Jul 2008 15:25:09 +0000

p.p.s. Noting that Michael’s subsequent comments and discussion with Emily and Don weren’t scolding at all.
I apologize for “pain in the ass.” But it’s true! Has anybody here never had a teacher who wasn’t a pain in the patootie?
I’m thinking now that Lucia’s comment wasn’t exasperated or polemical, but teasing. Imagine it being said in a bar.

By: john

john — Wed, 16 Jul 2008 14:57:18 +0000

p.s. Not disagreeing with Michael’s less hyperbolic point that reading is always theoretical and determined.
But a person’s aesthetic response is always of interest as well. That was Lucia’s initial comment. Michael adopted a somewhat scolding tone in response, arguably disregarding the validity of having an aesthetic interest in the poetry.
Michael may not have intended to produce a scolding tone, or to foreclose the possibility of holding an aesthetic interest in the poetry as well as an ideological and historical one; he may have simply hoping to be opening the field of interest to include ideological and historical concerns in addition to aesthetic ones; but it’s unclear. We know that Michael has aesthetic interests in poetry too, because he has shared aesthetic enthusiasms on Harriet. So I’d be inclined to think that he wasn’t trying to foreclose on aesthetic interest, but I would understand why someone might think differently.
Lucia responded, understandably, in an exasperated fashion, and Michael hauled out an unconfessed Nazi collaborator to scold her explicitly.
“Overdetermined” is a funny word.
Teachers can be such a pain in the ass.

By: john

john — Wed, 16 Jul 2008 14:34:34 +0000

The idea that reading “is the starting point of all evil” is so melodramatic, so hyperbolic, so purple, that it might be funny, if it hadn’t been a Nazi collaborator who said it. Knowing that de Man wrote anti-Semitic articles in occupied Belgium for a collaborationist newspaper, it sounds either chilling or semi-consciously semi-confessional. In any case not generally applicable.

By: Michael Robbins

Michael Robbins — Wed, 16 Jul 2008 01:59:06 +0000

Well, yes, & I’m being polemical back. Because, as you know, the real question she’s asking is decidedly not whether you need a PhD to read a poem — she knows perfectly well you don’t. Rather, she suggests that the above discussion engages in over-analysis (PhD synecdochal for intellectualization of the transparent act of “reading a poem”), & by implication that “reading a poem” is a totally straightforward & innocent act that can just take place between the poem & reader without a bunch of theory & criticism intruding. I think that’s a fair paraphrase & reject the terms of that assertion. I believe Paul de Man is right to insist that “the act of reading is [not] innocent. Far from it. It is the starting point of all evil.” This is why I said that the asking of these questions is ethically urged on us. “Reading a poem” is already an overdetermined act, not something that one does in a vacuum, disconnected from all other acts & beliefs.

By: Emily Warn

Emily Warn — Wed, 16 Jul 2008 01:17:01 +0000

Questioning whether you need a Ph.D. to understand a poem is anti-intellectual? Lucia is being, uh, what you might call polemical.
What we really need is Claudia Jones’ poetry. I’ve ordered the Carole Boyce Davies’ book and hope that will help us find it. After that, we turn to the Freedom of Information Act website.
Emily

By: Michael Robbins

Michael Robbins — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 16:48:12 +0000

Lucia, I don’t think an anti-intellectual tone helps the discussion. If you’re not interested in these aspects of poetic reception, that’s fine. But do you really believe that these questions don’t exist or aren’t of concern to others? Is Bourdieu just full of it? Does poetry occur in a vacuum, removed from all social relationships & economic arrangements?
At any rate, I happen to believe that an intellectual engagement with arguments like Bourdieu’s is ethically urged on those of us who love poetry, but I don’t believe anyone’s forcing you to feel the same way. The answer to yr question is no.

By: Lucia

Lucia — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 16:08:53 +0000

Jesus, all I want to do is read some of Claudia Jones’ poems. Do I have to have a Ph.D. to do that?

By: Al Filreis

Al Filreis — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 12:52:46 +0000

I've posted a reponse to this discussion here: http://afilreis.blogspot.com/2008/07/as-i-prepared-to-write-book-on.html