http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/08/a-few-thoughts-on-poetry-and-criticism/ A blog from the Poetry Foundation where contemporary poets debate classic and contemporary poetry from America and around the world. Sat, 07 Nov 2009 20:24:02 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/08/a-few-thoughts-on-poetry-and-criticism/#comment-4767 John Gallaher Wed, 13 Aug 2008 12:15:48 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=996#comment-4767 I agree with one or the other or both of you, depending on what I'm doing at the time. I agree with one or the other or both of you, depending on what I’m doing at the time.

]]> http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/08/a-few-thoughts-on-poetry-and-criticism/#comment-4766 Michael Robbins Mon, 11 Aug 2008 15:52:34 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=996#comment-4766 I'm looking over a many-leafed clover that I overlooked before. "Doodle" -- <i>if</i> that is your real name! I’m looking over a many-leafed clover that I overlooked before. “Doodle” — if that is your real name!

]]> http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/08/a-few-thoughts-on-poetry-and-criticism/#comment-4765 Michael Robbins Mon, 11 Aug 2008 15:39:03 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=996#comment-4765 Well, now that you mention it, I've never seen Henry Gould & Kent Johnson in the same place at the same time. J'accuse! Well, now that you mention it, I’ve never seen Henry Gould & Kent Johnson in the same place at the same time. J’accuse!

]]> http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/08/a-few-thoughts-on-poetry-and-criticism/#comment-4764 Doodle Mon, 11 Aug 2008 15:19:03 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=996#comment-4764 Well, there's a lot more to poetry than tropes, borrowed or blue! Well, there’s a lot more to poetry than tropes, borrowed or blue!

]]> http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/08/a-few-thoughts-on-poetry-and-criticism/#comment-4763 Doodle Mon, 11 Aug 2008 13:25:33 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=996#comment-4763 Perhaps l'affaire d'Jeanne d'Arc demonstrates nicely how critics can fail to see the obvious! Alors! Perhaps l’affaire d’Jeanne d’Arc demonstrates nicely how critics can fail to see the obvious!
Alors!

]]> http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/08/a-few-thoughts-on-poetry-and-criticism/#comment-4762 graywyvern Mon, 11 Aug 2008 13:07:50 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=996#comment-4762 I like to say that <strong>when the best poetry in our language was being written there were neither critics nor dictionaries</strong>, but actually that's only half-true. From the very beginning, when people started writing down & editing their beloved epics, this was an act of "criticism"; as were the innumerable attempts at translation that preceded & accompanied our own Elizabethan era. In fact, the idea of a pure lyricism is itself the creation of a later, self-conscious age. Poets meet & talk shop just as soon as they begin exchanging poems. Their poetry reflects what they have heard & read. If there is a distinction to be made between the two activities (& i omit for the time being, allusions & actual borrowings), it must be rather between those words which are addressed to a wider audience, & the things that one addresses only other poets with. m. I like to say that when the best poetry in our language was being written there were neither critics nor dictionaries, but actually that’s only half-true. From the very beginning, when people started writing down & editing their beloved epics, this was an act of “criticism”; as were the innumerable attempts at translation that preceded & accompanied our own Elizabethan era. In fact, the idea of a pure lyricism is itself the creation of a later, self-conscious age. Poets meet & talk shop just as soon as they begin exchanging poems. Their poetry reflects what they have heard & read. If there is a distinction to be made between the two activities (& i omit for the time being, allusions & actual borrowings), it must be rather between those words which are addressed to a wider audience, & the things that one addresses only other poets with.
m.

]]> http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/08/a-few-thoughts-on-poetry-and-criticism/#comment-4761 JP Craig Mon, 11 Aug 2008 12:33:55 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=996#comment-4761 What about the notion of poetry as itself secondary or derivative? Unless, you're making up your own language, you're derivative in that sense alone. But how about the tropes we borrow? Or the way we are indebted to the forms that came before us? I'm not talking about standing on the shoulders of giants, just the notion that poetry as an activity has characteristics that come from elsewhere. Innovation is over-rated, and foregoing it doesn't deny creativity. A third way poetry is derivative is that it often comes to the writer from some "outside" source. Or at least I read many poets describing it that way. The really good poem or line seems to come from somewhere or someone other than the self. Granted, this is "fictive," but it's descriptive, and it describes an imagined derivative relationship. This seems to be a strand missing from the arguments going on here. So maybe this "secondary" parasitic quality is something poetry shares with criticism and other forms of writing? What about the notion of poetry as itself secondary or derivative? Unless, you’re making up your own language, you’re derivative in that sense alone. But how about the tropes we borrow? Or the way we are indebted to the forms that came before us? I’m not talking about standing on the shoulders of giants, just the notion that poetry as an activity has characteristics that come from elsewhere. Innovation is over-rated, and foregoing it doesn’t deny creativity.
A third way poetry is derivative is that it often comes to the writer from some “outside” source. Or at least I read many poets describing it that way. The really good poem or line seems to come from somewhere or someone other than the self. Granted, this is “fictive,” but it’s descriptive, and it describes an imagined derivative relationship.
This seems to be a strand missing from the arguments going on here.
So maybe this “secondary” parasitic quality is something poetry shares with criticism and other forms of writing?

]]> http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/08/a-few-thoughts-on-poetry-and-criticism/#comment-4760 Michael Robbins Mon, 11 Aug 2008 04:17:27 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=996#comment-4760 (also, if that's true, I dunno where s/he gets off calling <i>me</i> "busy.") (also, if that’s true, I dunno where s/he gets off calling me “busy.”)

]]> http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/08/a-few-thoughts-on-poetry-and-criticism/#comment-4759 Michael Robbins Mon, 11 Aug 2008 04:10:38 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=996#comment-4759 What! Is that true? I had no idea! (Which is ironic, considering that -- I swear this is true -- I sussed Jane's real identity from the first review I read -- it's the voice -- didn't even realize it wasn't general knowledge for years.) What! Is that true? I had no idea! (Which is ironic, considering that — I swear this is true — I sussed Jane’s real identity from the first review I read — it’s the voice — didn’t even realize it wasn’t general knowledge for years.)

]]> http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/08/a-few-thoughts-on-poetry-and-criticism/#comment-4758 A Mon, 11 Aug 2008 03:45:25 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=996#comment-4758 Michael, Jeanne d'arc, duh! Michael,
Jeanne d’arc, duh!

]]>