Comments on: Flarf vs. Conceptual Writing 2

By: Seth Abramson

Seth Abramson — Mon, 19 Jan 2009 04:46:33 +0000

Hi Brent,
In your highly imaginary scenario, are we imagining that the only person who would ever have published Robert Creeley was Charles Olson, and thus–without Olson’s cronyism–we would have been bereft of Creeley’s genius? I mean, the situation in the publishing industry is bad, but it’s never been *that* bad. If you’re better than 600 of your book-published contemporaries, you’ll find a home from your work *without* putting a thumb (or having a buddy put *his* thumb) on the scales. Best wishes,
Seth

By: Brent Cunningham

Brent Cunningham — Tue, 30 Dec 2008 16:51:36 +0000

Hey Seth,
Without quite disagreeing with the overarching case for ethical editorial behavior you’re making, Seth, I’m curious if the following would change anything in your moral logic? Imagine something like the Olson/Creeley friendship, where each spent time reading 300-600 of their contemporaries (at a minimum), and determined each other to be among the very “best” writers they could locate, then initiated a friendship that blossomed, and thus began a process of publishing and supporting each other. In other words, what if this “friend” over there playing the xbox became one’s friend through an aesthetic affinity as much as the coincidence of being in some workshop together or being playstation buddies or what have you.
Hasn’t the ethical work of digging through those 600 manuscripts essentially already been done, except that one has dug through 600 contemporaries? Would that change anything in your strikingly imaginary scenerio?
yrs,
Brent Cunningham

By: Seth Abramson

Seth Abramson — Sun, 21 Dec 2008 04:18:57 +0000

Hi Ryan,
I’d absolutely agree that, fundamentally, the editor makes the final call–period. I have no interest in policing folks’ editorial decisions. The one thing I’d note is (and it’s something I’ve pointed out before), I’m less likely to look into a new book in the *first* instance if I know there wasn’t any rigor behind the selection process. That’s because there are so many collections vying for one’s attention, I tend to play the odds and give the hardest look to books not published by buddies, spouses, students, etcetera, of the editor. Do I wish others would pick up this line of thinking, thereby creating a feedback loop ending in better editorial practices? Sure. Am I holding my breath?…
Best,
Seth

By: K. Silem Mohammad

K. Silem Mohammad — Sun, 21 Dec 2008 03:22:46 +0000

See how Conceptual Writing fares against two other poetic approaches, here (http://lime-tree.blogspot.com/2008/12/conceptual-writing-vs-haiku.html) and here (http://lime-tree.blogspot.com/2008/12/conceptual-writing-vs-keats.html).

By: Michael Robbins

Michael Robbins — Sat, 20 Dec 2008 22:29:50 +0000

Gretchen, you are such a cheerful person.

By: Gretchen

Gretchen — Sat, 20 Dec 2008 20:50:48 +0000

Henry, it is indeed a wonder that you guys are still complaining about this a decade later.

By: Henry Gould

Henry Gould — Sat, 20 Dec 2008 13:03:49 +0000

It’s really one of the Seven Wonders of our ancient Poetry World that we’re still talking about the Days of Buffalo ‘99. Kent Johnson, the Hercules of Po-Biz Argonauts, has truly out-Alexandrianed the Alexandrians in keeping this small dead fish alive. But I do think his version of the actual events, as written up in the Skanky Possum article ( http://www.flashpointmag.com/skanky.htm ) way back then, is pretty much correct.
One of the things that struck me at the time about what happened there was that in some ways the Poetics List managers sort of shot themselves in the (poetics) foot, since my muzzling for “overposting” took place in the midst of a list hullabaloo over some sarcastic, satirical & over-the-top posts by Gabriel Gudding about Marjorie Perloff, and her replies to the list. The occasion for my final muzzling there was a post I sent in in defense of Gudding’s Perloff postings. Of course on a supervised list such as the Poetics list the question of “free speech” and “rights” is purely internal to the workings of that community. & in general it seemed ot be the opinion of many old-time list members, as well as the list owners, that I was a troublesom over-poster & was damaging the quality of the list. Hence they went along with my special “review” status. Kent, Gabriel, Carlo & a few others raised a hue & cry, & they were subsequently “banished” along with me.
The poetry tribe is a funny kind of people.

By: Gretchen

Gretchen — Sat, 20 Dec 2008 10:29:09 +0000

Kent,
What does your feeling victimized have to do with Flarf or Conceptual poetry?
It does appear, given your repeated mentions of it here, as though you gain some pleasure feeling victimized by other poets, which is certainly comical, as you say.
But this has nothing substantive to do with either of these current trends in poetry, and we’re all baffled as to why you keep bringing it up.
Is it too much to ask for posters here to remain on topic?
I do want to respond to Bill Knott’s comment, which is right on, of course. This is Kenneth Goldsmith’s way of acknowledging that flarf often takes on ugly depictions (and language) and engages with it, whereas Conceptual Poetry, like most other contemporary poetries, actively avoids it to focus on other things.
My two cents!

By: Ryan

Ryan — Sat, 20 Dec 2008 03:16:35 +0000

I would appreciate my Silliman post returned to me. Thanks, it’s so relevant.
Seth, this “publishing your friends” debate was aired with Foetry. I didn’t fully disagree then and I don’t now, but what if I DO value art as the highest human value AND I want to publish my friend’s book because it’s the “bestest little ruby in the whole whirligig.”
If you agree, then you see it more or less like I do. If not, then my question is, who judges which work is the “hack” work, the one you publish or the one you skip over?

By: Seth Abramson

Seth Abramson — Fri, 19 Dec 2008 20:31:38 +0000

Hi there Matt (and sorry for the delay in responding)–
Say you’re an editor at a small independent press. You’ve got enough money to publish one book. You’re a self-described “purist” and believe Art is the highest of all worldly values. Given the limited-resources state of the publishing industry you know that–to publish the one book you’ve the money to publish–you could throw open the doors of your small independent press to unsolicited submissions and receive (and believe me, you would indeed receive!) between 300 and 600 manuscript submissions within the first 60 days. Because you’re logical, you realize that the larger the stock of manuscripts in front of you the more likely you’ll end up publishing the very *best* collection you have available to you to publish.
Now let’s say “X” is a friend of yours, someone who you go for pizza with every Wednesday, who writes poetry you really like. You decide (say) to publish his book instead of reading even a single unsolicited submission.
This has nothing to do with editors publishing collections they don’t like; I didn’t say that, and to answer your question, no, I *don’t* think that happens. I’ve been an editor; I know what a misery it would be to publish work I didn’t care for. But also, as I’ve been an editor, I know that an editor is able to distinguish between work s/he “really likes” and the work that is the *best* available for her/him to publish. When one publishes within a social network it’s human psychology that non-aesthetic considerations will make a “really good” book of poetry seem like the “best” one to publish. Sometimes the excuse will be something like, “I just know I could work well with this person,” or “I know that they promote their work well,” all of which are almost certainly true–but don’t logically make *untrue* such suppositions with respect to the 300 to 600 prospective manuscript submissions the editor never read. The bottom line is, editors are the ones putting the work in, they can publish whomever they like; I just think an editor would be hard-pressed to claim s/he was publishing the best work available, when s/he didn’t look any further than (say) a buddy sitting there on the sofa playing XBox.
I don’t want to substitute my judgment for anyone else’s. But there’s a pretty long history of literature written on “process management” which tells us that if one publishes those with whom one has a lasting social relationship, one is *by definition* not striving to publish the best work available. Which, incidentally, is what an actual “purist” would do. That’s all I meant, Matt.
S.