Comments on: A Few Quick Questions About the Education of Youth Circa 2009 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/03/a-few-quick-questions-about-the-education-of-youth-circa-2009/ Thu, 12 Jan 2012 08:40:04 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Janet Fagal http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/03/a-few-quick-questions-about-the-education-of-youth-circa-2009/#comment-21417 Janet Fagal Mon, 03 Aug 2009 01:36:43 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=1291#comment-21417 Thanks, John for your comments and the link to your site, not to mention your students' poetry. I know the NEA program and am trying to start it at my school at the HS level. I also know the ROW contest but have not entered that one, though it is my goal for next year. It is hard to teach all the subjects and get the 3rd graders writing what I consider "contest worthy" poems early in the year, but I KNOW they can do it. My students have won contests with some of their wonderful poetry and we celebrate the others with our in-house publication. I will send you a couple I hope you will enjoy. While I took Spanish eons ago in high school, I am afraid I am fairly illiterate when it comes to savoring your students' poems in Spanish. I thought Maggie's winning ROW poem about speaking to the dead was powerful. I believe that my students' immersion in hearing, learning, reading and sharing poetry of many types "puts" a schema in their heads and enables them to write poems that often surprise and delight. From the east coast to you on the west I can see we have a kindred spirit with poetry. I will investigate your site more thoroughly later this week. Do you know Hal Urban's work? He's from the San Francisco area. I just met him and have just found his books, though our ideas are also in sync. He is really a wonderful and inspirational writer/teacher/presenter, though about "life lessons" and not poetry, though I see a similarity. Please tell Stephanie I loved her poem. I am on my way to the ocean in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina and was also just in Maine.....I hope it doesn't rain so I can soak up some of that gold. Do you know the book by Amity Gaige We are a Thunderstorm, no longer in print? I find it to be very good to show kids what powerful free verse is like. She wrote it when she was 16. She is now a novelist and professor in New England. JF I want to Thanks, John for your comments and the link to your site, not to mention your students’ poetry. I know the NEA program and am trying to start it at my school at the HS level. I also know the ROW contest but have not entered that one, though it is my goal for next year. It is hard to teach all the subjects and get the 3rd graders writing what I consider “contest worthy” poems early in the year, but I KNOW they can do it.

My students have won contests with some of their wonderful poetry and we celebrate the others with our in-house publication. I will send you a couple I hope you will enjoy. While I took Spanish eons ago in high school, I am afraid I am fairly illiterate when it comes to savoring your students’ poems in Spanish. I thought Maggie’s winning ROW poem about speaking to the dead was powerful.

I believe that my students’ immersion in hearing, learning, reading and sharing poetry of many types “puts” a schema in their heads and enables them to write poems that often surprise and delight. From the east coast to you on the west I can see we have a kindred spirit with poetry. I will investigate your site more thoroughly later this week.

Do you know Hal Urban’s work? He’s from the San Francisco area. I just met him and have just found his books, though our ideas are also in sync. He is really a wonderful and inspirational writer/teacher/presenter, though about “life lessons” and not poetry, though I see a similarity.

Please tell Stephanie I loved her poem. I am on my way to the ocean in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina and was also just in Maine…..I hope it doesn’t rain so I can soak up some of that gold. Do you know the book by Amity Gaige We are a Thunderstorm, no longer in print? I find it to be very good to show kids what powerful free verse is like. She wrote it when she was 16. She is now a novelist and professor in New England.

JF

I want to
Report this comment

]]> By: John Oliver Simon http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/03/a-few-quick-questions-about-the-education-of-youth-circa-2009/#comment-17714 John Oliver Simon Thu, 16 Jul 2009 20:49:37 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=1291#comment-17714 Janet, the great work you are doing with your kids on poetry is very similar to the NEA's big recitation program Poetry Out Loud (limited alas to high school). I met five state POL winners when I was in Washington at the National Book Fair last September in my capacity as a translator. Great kids. I work in a poetry-writing project, Poetry Inside Out, a program of the Center for the Art of Translation in san francisco, with mostly bilingual third through tenth-graders, teaching them to write their own poetry by way of translating great poetry from Spanish. You can check us out at www.catranslation.org. I'm sure our work would inspire vou even if your kids only speak English. Here's a poem, by Stephanie Serratos, third grade: When it's hot There's joy And birds make music Tuesday in Spring Happiness springs From a well In my dream There's a natural garden With a sun that's mine In the ocean there's parallel music That shines like gold that shines like gold Janet, the great work you are doing with your kids on poetry is very similar to the NEA’s big recitation program Poetry Out Loud (limited alas to high school). I met five state POL winners when I was in Washington at the National Book Fair last September in my capacity as a translator. Great kids. I work in a poetry-writing project, Poetry Inside Out, a program of the Center for the Art of Translation in san francisco, with mostly bilingual third through tenth-graders, teaching them to write their own poetry by way of translating great poetry from Spanish. You can check us out at http://www.catranslation.org. I’m sure our work would inspire vou even if your kids only speak English. Here’s a poem, by Stephanie Serratos, third grade:

When it’s hot
There’s joy
And birds make music

Tuesday in Spring
Happiness springs
From a well

In my dream
There’s a natural garden
With a sun that’s mine

In the ocean
there’s parallel music
That shines like gold
that shines like gold
Report this comment

]]> By: Janet Fagal http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/03/a-few-quick-questions-about-the-education-of-youth-circa-2009/#comment-17351 Janet Fagal Wed, 15 Jul 2009 18:48:20 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=1291#comment-17351 Hi, I just found this site. I am an elementary teacher and for the past five years I have been happily letting my 3rd graders memorize and recite poetry. We end the year with a poetry recital. My students continually amaze me. There is no requirement, no test, no homework, no pressure to particpate and yet the children joyfully and playfully memorize over 45 poems including Yeat's The Lake Isle of Innisfree, Whitman's O Captian, My Captain and Carroll's Jabberwocky. The best part? They do it as easily as breathing. An early poster alluded to this idea in how she has "magically" memorized parts of Shakespeare simply by the repetition. A visiting author told me that the Inuit word for poetry is the same as their word for breathing. I have used "they learn the poems magically" and "as easily as breathing" since the beginning. It is wonderful. It takes very little class time. I have a few simple strategies and I believe that the educational and personal gains from doing this are wide and important. The parents love it, the kids love it and as a teacher who was eligible to retire 5 years ago, I love it and continue to want to teach so I can see what the children can do. This year in honor of Lincoln's 200th birthday I read them the Gettysburg Address and the children learned it and wanted to perfect it, which they did. I think the essential difference between what I am doing and some of the past ways of requiring poetry recitation in conjunction with elocution and individual memorization, is that we do it as a group. 8 and 9 year olds are eager to participate in most things. I believe that "safety in numbers", "keeping it positive", and "teaching" the poems in a natural way is what contributes to the success of my approach. I do work on inflection, phrasing and careful delivery, but I only allow a few hand motions in a couple of "fun" poems for variety's sake. My biggest dream is that I can spread this idea to many schools and teachers. Upon examination of the poems I use (chosen because I like them, I think the kids will like them, they match the curriculum I teach or have beautiful language or historic importance, etc.), how I approach poetry (no pressure) and what my children have accomplished in the areas of knowledge, vocabulary development, fluent reading, public speaking and writing, not to mention learning about poetic forms, poets, and the language of poetry. I think I have stumbled onto something that can give teachers and students "a lot of bang for the educational buck". Not least among this is a love of poetry and an interest in this subject that will hopefully last a lifetime. I have heard from many grandparents about poems they learned as children and still re-call. My students will be reading a passage and say, "oh that reminds me of a poem" and then ask to recite a specific poem. Lastly this year I went with my students to a beautiful state park and we went on a hike around a glacial lake. When the path split, I said, "this reminds me of a poem" and with no prompting from me the children began, "Two roads diverged in yellow wood and sorry I could not travel both...." And they continued to recite as we walked on the uphill path " so took the other as just as fair..." This is an example of how I have tried to bring poetry, shared experience and beautiful language into my student's lives. But it was a teaching moment I hope I never forget! I have an article coming out in a newsletter and am working on a book about this approach. I would be eager to hear from any others who know of teachers in elementary school doing something similar. I am not a poetry expert, but gained a love of poetry from my mother who learned it from a favorite teacher many years ago. My interest in poetry has grown and grown in the 5 years I have been weaving poetry into the daily fabric of my classroom. But as I tell everyone, this takes very little time, does not require the teacher to know the poems by heart in order to get the children to do it and is lots of fun. People who see my recital have said things like it was incredible, one of the best evenings out of their life, was the most amazing thing they had seen in their educational career. We do not even have a "real' run-through rehearsal of poetry night. I know it might sound like I am "bragging" but really, what I am hoping for is others who would want to do what I am doing or share what they have discovered. Poetry makes it all worthwhile. I am hoping that my students will be eager students of poetry when they get to high school and beyond. Hi,

I just found this site. I am an elementary teacher and for the past five years I have been happily letting my 3rd graders memorize and recite poetry. We end the year with a poetry recital. My students continually amaze me. There is no requirement, no test, no homework, no pressure to particpate and yet the children joyfully and playfully memorize over 45 poems including Yeat’s The Lake Isle of Innisfree, Whitman’s O Captian, My Captain and Carroll’s Jabberwocky. The best part? They do it as easily as breathing. An early poster alluded to this idea in how she has “magically” memorized parts of Shakespeare simply by the repetition. A visiting author told me that the Inuit word for poetry is the same as their word for breathing. I have used “they learn the poems magically” and “as easily as breathing” since the beginning. It is wonderful.

It takes very little class time. I have a few simple strategies and I believe that the educational and personal gains from doing this are wide and important. The parents love it, the kids love it and as a teacher who was eligible to retire 5 years ago, I love it and continue to want to teach so I can see what the children can do.

This year in honor of Lincoln’s 200th birthday I read them the Gettysburg Address and the children learned it and wanted to perfect it, which they did. I think the essential difference between what I am doing and some of the past ways of requiring poetry recitation in conjunction with elocution and individual memorization, is that we do it as a group. 8 and 9 year olds are eager to participate in most things. I believe that “safety in numbers”, “keeping it positive”, and “teaching” the poems in a natural way is what contributes to the success of my approach. I do work on inflection, phrasing and careful delivery, but I only allow a few hand motions in a couple of “fun” poems for variety’s sake.

My biggest dream is that I can spread this idea to many schools and teachers. Upon examination of the poems I use (chosen because I like them, I think the kids will like them, they match the curriculum I teach or have beautiful language or historic importance, etc.), how I approach poetry (no pressure) and what my children have accomplished in the areas of knowledge, vocabulary development, fluent reading, public speaking and writing, not to mention learning about poetic forms, poets, and the language of poetry.

I think I have stumbled onto something that can give teachers and students “a lot of bang for the educational buck”. Not least among this is a love of poetry and an interest in this subject that will hopefully last a lifetime.

I have heard from many grandparents about poems they learned as children and still re-call. My students will be reading a passage and say, “oh that reminds me of a poem” and then ask to recite a specific poem. Lastly this year I went with my students to a beautiful state park and we went on a hike around a glacial lake. When the path split, I said, “this reminds me of a poem” and with no prompting from me the children began, “Two roads diverged in yellow wood and sorry I could not travel both….” And they continued to recite as we walked on the uphill path ” so took the other as just as fair…” This is an example of how I have tried to bring poetry, shared experience and beautiful language into my student’s lives. But it was a teaching moment I hope I never forget!

I have an article coming out in a newsletter and am working on a book about this approach. I would be eager to hear from any others who know of teachers in elementary school doing something similar.

I am not a poetry expert, but gained a love of poetry from my mother who learned it from a favorite teacher many years ago. My interest in poetry has grown and grown in the 5 years I have been weaving poetry into the daily fabric of my classroom. But as I tell everyone, this takes very little time, does not require the teacher to know the poems by heart in order to get the children to do it and is lots of fun.

People who see my recital have said things like it was incredible, one of the best evenings out of their life, was the most amazing thing they had seen in their educational career. We do not even have a “real’ run-through rehearsal of poetry night. I know it might sound like I am “bragging” but really, what I am hoping for is others who would want to do what I am doing or share what they have discovered. Poetry makes it all worthwhile.

I am hoping that my students will be eager students of poetry when they get to high school and beyond.
Report this comment

]]> By: Colin Ward http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/03/a-few-quick-questions-about-the-education-of-youth-circa-2009/#comment-8347 Colin Ward Tue, 31 Mar 2009 04:04:04 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=1291#comment-8347 Thanks, Michael. For what it's worth, I agree that a perfectly balanced spondee is very rare, a molossus even more so. Thanks, Michael. For what it’s worth, I agree that a perfectly balanced spondee is very rare, a molossus even more so.
Report this comment

]]> By: michael robbins http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/03/a-few-quick-questions-about-the-education-of-youth-circa-2009/#comment-8345 michael robbins Tue, 31 Mar 2009 01:01:28 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=1291#comment-8345 Because "strange" receives more stress than "grows." True spondees are very rare. (Hamlet's "Go, go," for instance.) If there is a light-heavy alternation then the foot is an iamb, because that's all an iamb is -- it doesn't matter if the two syllables are closer in stress than usual. Because “strange” receives more stress than “grows.” True spondees are very rare. (Hamlet’s “Go, go,” for instance.) If there is a light-heavy alternation then the foot is an iamb, because that’s all an iamb is — it doesn’t matter if the two syllables are closer in stress than usual.
Report this comment

]]> By: Colin Ward http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/03/a-few-quick-questions-about-the-education-of-youth-circa-2009/#comment-8342 Colin Ward Tue, 31 Mar 2009 00:49:40 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=1291#comment-8342 <B>The DUMB GROWS STRANGEly TALKaTIVE</B> Is there some reason why we don't just say the second foot is a spondaic substitution? FWIW, I scan this as 1-5-4-5-1-5-1-3, where 4s and 5s are stresses, 1s and 2s aren't, and 3s swing either way due to their position. -o- The DUMB GROWS STRANGEly TALKaTIVE

Is there some reason why we don’t just say the second foot is a spondaic substitution?

FWIW, I scan this as 1-5-4-5-1-5-1-3, where 4s and 5s are stresses, 1s and 2s aren’t, and 3s swing either way due to their position.

-o-
Report this comment

]]> By: Tim Upperton http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/03/a-few-quick-questions-about-the-education-of-youth-circa-2009/#comment-7729 Tim Upperton Sun, 29 Mar 2009 19:39:16 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=1291#comment-7729 Beaten to death <i> and </i> drowned... goodness! Michael Robbins's reference, on another thread, to the <i>NPEP</i> prompted me to pluck my copy from the shelf and turn to the entry on meter, where I read this: "The distinction between meter and rhythm is ancient and fundamental. Precise accounts of the distinction vary, but in general, rhythm becomes manifest in speech"; and the metrical pattern "must only be made manifest at the very outset of a poem, and repeated thereafter only as often as necessary for the pattern not to become blurred or forgotten. To insist that every line conform to one pattern is to misunderstand what the mind requires for pattern recognition: monotony is fatal." Thomas Brady, from now on your argument is with the <i>New Princeton Encyclopedia of Poetry and Poetics</i>, not with me. Beaten to death and drowned… goodness!
Michael Robbins’s reference, on another thread, to the NPEP prompted me to pluck my copy from the shelf and turn to the entry on meter, where I read this:
“The distinction between meter and rhythm is ancient and fundamental. Precise accounts of the distinction vary, but in general, rhythm becomes manifest in speech”; and the metrical pattern “must only be made manifest at the very outset of a poem, and repeated thereafter only as often as necessary for the pattern not to become blurred or forgotten. To insist that every line conform to one pattern is to misunderstand what the mind requires for pattern recognition: monotony is fatal.”
Thomas Brady, from now on your argument is with the New Princeton Encyclopedia of Poetry and Poetics, not with me.
Report this comment

]]> By: thomas brady http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/03/a-few-quick-questions-about-the-education-of-youth-circa-2009/#comment-7728 thomas brady Tue, 24 Mar 2009 17:30:00 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=1291#comment-7728 Tim, On the contrary, subtlety is only possible in the realm of a certain definitiveness. Ironically, one can be beaten to death by subtlety as with a blunt instrument, as well, when subtlety is a fancy or a rhythm that is merely subjective. Natural sounds provide thousands of intricate rhythms which please on some level, but verse will be drowned by such 'subtelty.' Thomas Tim,
On the contrary, subtlety is only possible in the realm of a certain definitiveness.
Ironically, one can be beaten to death by subtlety as with a blunt instrument, as well, when subtlety is a fancy or a rhythm that is merely subjective. Natural sounds provide thousands of intricate rhythms which please on some level, but verse will be drowned by such ‘subtelty.’
Thomas
Report this comment

]]> By: Tim Upperton http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/03/a-few-quick-questions-about-the-education-of-youth-circa-2009/#comment-7727 Tim Upperton Mon, 23 Mar 2009 19:28:21 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=1291#comment-7727 "If the reader does not hear immediately the intention of the meter, the poet is always wrong": did Poe really say that? So in the use of meter, there's no room for subtlety? That speech rhythm and meter converge and diverge is one of the pleasures of prosody; it's not an "error", nor is it "sloppy". If meter hits me repeatedly and expectedly with the force of a blunt instrument, then yes, the effect is one of monotony. If it approaches and departs from the rhythm of speech, then subtlety, surprise, and any number of tonal effects are possible. You seem to cling to a very limited, cut-and-dried notion of what meter can and can't do (which makes your "philistine" slur a little ironic) , and you ignore the actual metrical practice of poets from Shakespeare to Marilyn Hacker. Just because Poe says it, don't make it so. “If the reader does not hear immediately the intention of the meter, the poet is always wrong”: did Poe really say that? So in the use of meter, there’s no room for subtlety? That speech rhythm and meter converge and diverge is one of the pleasures of prosody; it’s not an “error”, nor is it “sloppy”. If meter hits me repeatedly and expectedly with the force of a blunt instrument, then yes, the effect is one of monotony. If it approaches and departs from the rhythm of speech, then subtlety, surprise, and any number of tonal effects are possible. You seem to cling to a very limited, cut-and-dried notion of what meter can and can’t do (which makes your “philistine” slur a little ironic) , and you ignore the actual metrical practice of poets from Shakespeare to Marilyn Hacker. Just because Poe says it, don’t make it so.
Report this comment

]]> By: thomas brady http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/03/a-few-quick-questions-about-the-education-of-youth-circa-2009/#comment-7726 thomas brady Mon, 23 Mar 2009 15:01:24 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=1291#comment-7726 Tim, That's exactly what I'm hearing: the speech and the meter parting company; that sort of thing can hide itself well in brief spurts, but if a poet was really convinced that 'the dumb grows strangely talkative' was iambic par excellence, and attempted a long poem with that sort of ear, disaster would follow; a reader would lose patience, as the minor (I'll admit) error in the hearing would eventually manifest itself. The 'counterpoint' you mention is a worm in the apple, I'm afraid. Meter is not for everybody; excuses for sloppy meter masking as scholarship doesn't help. Just because a certain vague rhythm strikes our fancy does not mean we shouldn't call a spade a spade. I realize I'm taking the long view, but sometimes it's proper to do so. Poe's music is more like Beethoven's than jazz; "monotony" is a philistine's take on Poe, sort of like the people who say that Beethoven sounds to them like 'funeral music.' Poe says something interesting in 'The Rationale of Verse,' which is that if the reader does not hear immediately the intention of the meter, the poet is always wrong, not the reader. The poet can always mouthe a rhythm to sound the way he wants it to sound, but meter is an objective truth. Variation can exist, and will better exist, when we DO NOT fudge in a fanciful sort of way. Thomas Tim,
That’s exactly what I’m hearing: the speech and the meter parting company; that sort of thing can hide itself well in brief spurts, but if a poet was really convinced that ‘the dumb grows strangely talkative’ was iambic par excellence, and attempted a long poem with that sort of ear, disaster would follow; a reader would lose patience, as the minor (I’ll admit) error in the hearing would eventually manifest itself. The ‘counterpoint’ you mention is a worm in the apple, I’m afraid. Meter is not for everybody; excuses for sloppy meter masking as scholarship doesn’t help. Just because a certain vague rhythm strikes our fancy does not mean we shouldn’t call a spade a spade. I realize I’m taking the long view, but sometimes it’s proper to do so.
Poe’s music is more like Beethoven’s than jazz; “monotony” is a philistine’s take on Poe, sort of like the people who say that Beethoven sounds to them like ‘funeral music.’
Poe says something interesting in ‘The Rationale of Verse,’ which is that if the reader does not hear immediately the intention of the meter, the poet is always wrong, not the reader. The poet can always mouthe a rhythm to sound the way he wants it to sound, but meter is an objective truth. Variation can exist, and will better exist, when we DO NOT fudge in a fanciful sort of way.
Thomas
Report this comment

]]> By: Mary Meriam http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/03/a-few-quick-questions-about-the-education-of-youth-circa-2009/#comment-7725 Mary Meriam Sun, 22 Mar 2009 03:26:25 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=1291#comment-7725 Michael, can you say "hash of scansion" five times very fast? But seriously, I wonder how quickly your students grasp scansion. I don't think it was the fault of my professors that way back when, I could not understand meter. Perhaps it's something that can't really be taught. It wasn't until I wrote ten million lines of strict IP, privately, on my own steam, that it all fell into place. It took time, practice, patience. What happens with your students? Michael, can you say “hash of scansion” five times very fast? But seriously, I wonder how quickly your students grasp scansion. I don’t think it was the fault of my professors that way back when, I could not understand meter. Perhaps it’s something that can’t really be taught. It wasn’t until I wrote ten million lines of strict IP, privately, on my own steam, that it all fell into place. It took time, practice, patience. What happens with your students?
Report this comment

]]> By: Tim Upperton http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/03/a-few-quick-questions-about-the-education-of-youth-circa-2009/#comment-7724 Tim Upperton Sun, 22 Mar 2009 02:16:40 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=1291#comment-7724 "The dumb grows strangely talkative" is as iambic as it gets - as iambic as "The curfew tolls the knell of passing day". But there's speech rhythm, and there's the rhythm of meter. In the opening lines of Gray's elegy, speech rhythm and meter coincide, so we can hear the tolling of the bell. But if they <i>always</i> coincide, the result is monotony (like quite a lot of Poe, I'm afraid). In "The dumb grows strangely talkative", speech rhythm and meter part company (a little) - one is a kind of counterpoint to the other. That's a valuable tension, I think. But it doesn't make the line less iambic. “The dumb grows strangely talkative” is as iambic as it gets – as iambic as “The curfew tolls the knell of passing day”. But there’s speech rhythm, and there’s the rhythm of meter. In the opening lines of Gray’s elegy, speech rhythm and meter coincide, so we can hear the tolling of the bell. But if they always coincide, the result is monotony (like quite a lot of Poe, I’m afraid).
In “The dumb grows strangely talkative”, speech rhythm and meter part company (a little) – one is a kind of counterpoint to the other. That’s a valuable tension, I think. But it doesn’t make the line less iambic.
Report this comment

]]> By: michael robbins http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/03/a-few-quick-questions-about-the-education-of-youth-circa-2009/#comment-7723 michael robbins Sat, 21 Mar 2009 20:43:55 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=1291#comment-7723 Mary, you're quite right, & I was the one who pointed that out earlier. But Thomas isn't interested in listening to what anyone says, only in insisting despite any of the sense that is being made against his points that Poe is right about meter. He regularly makes a complete hash of scansion because, evidently, Poe says that he should. Mary, you’re quite right, & I was the one who pointed that out earlier. But Thomas isn’t interested in listening to what anyone says, only in insisting despite any of the sense that is being made against his points that Poe is right about meter. He regularly makes a complete hash of scansion because, evidently, Poe says that he should.
Report this comment

]]> By: Mary Meriam http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/03/a-few-quick-questions-about-the-education-of-youth-circa-2009/#comment-7722 Mary Meriam Sat, 21 Mar 2009 19:20:11 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=1291#comment-7722 Thomas, scanning a line is not the same thing as reading it out loud or even reading it silently. As I think someone mentioned earlier, scanning is a question of listening for relative stress and subtle shifts in stress within each foot. So while you wouldn't say TALK-a-TIVE, with a mighty pounce on TIVE, TIVE nevertheless has a greater stress than the syllable preceding it - a. Thomas, scanning a line is not the same thing as reading it out loud or even reading it silently. As I think someone mentioned earlier, scanning is a question of listening for relative stress and subtle shifts in stress within each foot. So while you wouldn’t say TALK-a-TIVE, with a mighty pounce on TIVE, TIVE nevertheless has a greater stress than the syllable preceding it – a.
Report this comment

]]> By: thomas brady http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/03/a-few-quick-questions-about-the-education-of-youth-circa-2009/#comment-7721 thomas brady Fri, 20 Mar 2009 19:25:15 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=1291#comment-7721 Mary. "The dumb grows strangely talkative = iambic. It takes an effort to stress "grows" - why bother?" It does require more "effort" to say "grows," never mind "stress" it, because we have to enunciate the 'g,' the 'r,' the long 'o' sound and the 's.' So it's not that I "bother" to linger on "grows;" language calls me to it. Also, "Talkative" is a dactyl. I realize these are minute considerations, but in verse these minute materialities add up. NO ONE would say 'the DUMB grows STRANGE-ly TALK-a-TIVE.' Say it outloud with that iambic beat and tell me that sound at all natural. It sounds like one of those pre-recorded messages. Guys like Michael don't hate Poe because he was "wrong" or "muddled;" they don't like his rigor. Poe calls them on THEIR "muddle." That's why they bellyache. Thomas Mary.
“The dumb grows strangely talkative = iambic. It takes an effort to stress “grows” – why bother?”
It does require more “effort” to say “grows,” never mind “stress” it, because we have to enunciate the ‘g,’ the ‘r,’ the long ‘o’ sound and the ‘s.’ So it’s not that I “bother” to linger on “grows;” language calls me to it. Also, “Talkative” is a dactyl. I realize these are minute considerations, but in verse these minute materialities add up. NO ONE would say ‘the DUMB grows STRANGE-ly TALK-a-TIVE.’ Say it outloud with that iambic beat and tell me that sound at all natural. It sounds like one of those pre-recorded messages.
Guys like Michael don’t hate Poe because he was “wrong” or “muddled;” they don’t like his rigor. Poe calls them on THEIR “muddle.” That’s why they bellyache.
Thomas
Report this comment

]]> By: thomas brady http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/03/a-few-quick-questions-about-the-education-of-youth-circa-2009/#comment-7720 thomas brady Fri, 20 Mar 2009 14:21:28 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=1291#comment-7720 Michael, You are becoming more and more difficult to follow. So I'm supposed to "go back and read Sidney" and this will prove that Poe is "muddled" and Steele has all the answers? Calling 'The Rationale of Verse' "muddled" says much more about you than about Poe, I'm afraid. And you talk of my 'need to frame...'!? Trochaic might seem "plodding" to you, but again, your description of Poe is less than enlightening. But I do appreciate your taking the time to reply. Thomas Michael,
You are becoming more and more difficult to follow. So I’m supposed to “go back and read Sidney” and this will prove that Poe is “muddled” and Steele has all the answers? Calling ‘The Rationale of Verse’ “muddled” says much more about you than about Poe, I’m afraid. And you talk of my ‘need to frame…’!? Trochaic might seem “plodding” to you, but again, your description of Poe is less than enlightening. But I do appreciate your taking the time to reply.
Thomas
Report this comment

]]> By: michael robbins http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/03/a-few-quick-questions-about-the-education-of-youth-circa-2009/#comment-7719 michael robbins Thu, 19 Mar 2009 22:10:49 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=1291#comment-7719 Sigh. "Regard as superhuman" indeed. Have you considered that yr need to frame things in these terms reflects yr own attitudes toward Poe rather than mine toward anyone? Poe is a poetaster, a period piece, & I honestly thought his poems rubbish before I knew who Winters or Bloom was. Of course the versification texts' bibliographies don't include him, for his ideas are as muddled as his verse is plodding. Heck, go back & read Sidney to see how wrong Poe was. Enough, or too much! Sigh. “Regard as superhuman” indeed. Have you considered that yr need to frame things in these terms reflects yr own attitudes toward Poe rather than mine toward anyone? Poe is a poetaster, a period piece, & I honestly thought his poems rubbish before I knew who Winters or Bloom was. Of course the versification texts’ bibliographies don’t include him, for his ideas are as muddled as his verse is plodding. Heck, go back & read Sidney to see how wrong Poe was.
Enough, or too much!
Report this comment

]]> By: Mary Meriam http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/03/a-few-quick-questions-about-the-education-of-youth-circa-2009/#comment-7718 Mary Meriam Thu, 19 Mar 2009 21:08:32 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=1291#comment-7718 The dumb grows strangely talkative = iambic. It takes an effort to stress "grows" - why bother? I'm an in-house reader at Soundzine, and I've found what Thomas the Great said to be true, even of *perhaps* not great (who knows) poems: "...a great poem is where the poet has done all the acting necessary and put it in the language, so that a non-actor can simply recite the poem and it is as if merely reciting the poem is like a terrific piece of acting; all you have to do is read the poem with an understanding of it; you don't have to 'act' it, for that's already been done." What works best for me is to surrender to the poem - to be as undramatic as possible - and let the poem speak through me. Then the poem teaches me how to recite it. Perhaps I even deliberately try to make the recitation lackluster. Then hopefully the poem shines through. The dumb grows strangely talkative = iambic. It takes an effort to stress “grows” – why bother?
I’m an in-house reader at Soundzine, and I’ve found what Thomas the Great said to be true, even of *perhaps* not great (who knows) poems:
“…a great poem is where the poet has done all the acting necessary and put it in the language, so that a non-actor can simply recite the poem and it is as if merely reciting the poem is like a terrific piece of acting; all you have to do is read the poem with an understanding of it; you don’t have to ‘act’ it, for that’s already been done.”
What works best for me is to surrender to the poem – to be as undramatic as possible – and let the poem speak through me. Then the poem teaches me how to recite it. Perhaps I even deliberately try to make the recitation lackluster. Then hopefully the poem shines through.
Report this comment

]]> By: thomas brady http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/03/a-few-quick-questions-about-the-education-of-youth-circa-2009/#comment-7717 thomas brady Thu, 19 Mar 2009 19:29:42 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=1291#comment-7717 Michael, You say "it is iambic if iambic is the governing meter of the poem." Precisely. This is what I was saying when you were telling me I was "wrong." A "governing iambic meter" is not possible, however, if we continually attempt to force DUMB GROWS STRANGE into iambic, into a meter which must live not only within the foot, as you say, but in the foot sequence--which is why we say 'governing meter.' I never said I was against substitution, but that requires rigor, as well. I have read "Missing Measures," by the way, and other works besides. Why, I have even played fantasy baseball with Tim Steele's brother and sister, so I really don't think of Mr. Steele as super-human. You are quite mistaken if you think my thesis is "false," or that any of the 20th century versification texts--which don't even include Poe, the master, in their bibliographies--represent any advance over what Poe outlines in 'The Rationale of Verse.' The new formalists' woeful lack of popularity is perhaps an indication of failure in the field since Pope, Byron, and Poe wrote verses. The ear, it appears, is getting worse, not better, despite the myriad studies and texts--none of which reflect the slightest curiosity towards the guy who got it right. I have not caught the 'downplay Poe' plague. The disease afflicted Yvor Winters at Stamford, Vendler at Harvard, Harold Bloom at Yale, and no doubt prowls the halls of the U. Chicago. I wonder where you first caught it. Surely it wasn't when you were reading the master himself. Thomas Michael,
You say “it is iambic if iambic is the governing meter of the poem.” Precisely. This is what I was saying when you were telling me I was “wrong.”
A “governing iambic meter” is not possible, however, if we continually attempt to force DUMB GROWS STRANGE into iambic, into a meter which must live not only within the foot, as you say, but in the foot sequence–which is why we say ‘governing meter.’ I never said I was against substitution, but that requires rigor, as well.
I have read “Missing Measures,” by the way, and other works besides. Why, I have even played fantasy baseball with Tim Steele’s brother and sister, so I really don’t think of Mr. Steele as super-human. You are quite mistaken if you think my thesis is “false,” or that any of the 20th century versification texts–which don’t even include Poe, the master, in their bibliographies–represent any advance over what Poe outlines in ‘The Rationale of Verse.’
The new formalists’ woeful lack of popularity is perhaps an indication of failure in the field since Pope, Byron, and Poe wrote verses. The ear, it appears, is getting worse, not better, despite the myriad studies and texts–none of which reflect the slightest curiosity towards the guy who got it right.
I have not caught the ‘downplay Poe’ plague. The disease afflicted Yvor Winters at Stamford, Vendler at Harvard, Harold Bloom at Yale, and no doubt prowls the halls of the U. Chicago. I wonder where you first caught it. Surely it wasn’t when you were reading the master himself.
Thomas
Report this comment

]]> By: michael robbins http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/03/a-few-quick-questions-about-the-education-of-youth-circa-2009/#comment-7716 michael robbins Thu, 19 Mar 2009 17:56:33 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=1291#comment-7716 It's not a mess, it <i>is</i> iambic, & yr comments just reveal the degree to which you're convinced of a false thesis that leads to plodding rhythms of the sort exemplified by a certain poet I can't stand: that meter is inflexible. Imagine if everyone wrote like Chidiock Tichborne. Here's a point Steele makes often, echoed by most thinkers about these matters: even if a line contains a trochaic (or some other) substitution, it is iambic if iambic is the governing meter of the poem. Substitution & variation are necessary to meter, not deviations from it. A given meter is simply the pattern to which the lines abstractly adhere. And yr reading of the line I offered makes no sense to my ears, which hear it as simply one kind of iambic line among several: as I've said throughout, the peaks & valleys of meter conform to no fixed pitch or height or depth: stresses vary. All that matters is the relative relation of the syllables within a foot. It’s not a mess, it is iambic, & yr comments just reveal the degree to which you’re convinced of a false thesis that leads to plodding rhythms of the sort exemplified by a certain poet I can’t stand: that meter is inflexible. Imagine if everyone wrote like Chidiock Tichborne. Here’s a point Steele makes often, echoed by most thinkers about these matters: even if a line contains a trochaic (or some other) substitution, it is iambic if iambic is the governing meter of the poem. Substitution & variation are necessary to meter, not deviations from it. A given meter is simply the pattern to which the lines abstractly adhere. And yr reading of the line I offered makes no sense to my ears, which hear it as simply one kind of iambic line among several: as I’ve said throughout, the peaks & valleys of meter conform to no fixed pitch or height or depth: stresses vary. All that matters is the relative relation of the syllables within a foot.
Report this comment

]]> By: thomas brady http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/03/a-few-quick-questions-about-the-education-of-youth-circa-2009/#comment-7715 thomas brady Thu, 19 Mar 2009 16:48:26 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=1291#comment-7715 Michael, Great point. "Grows" does get more stress than "tive" in your example above. If you said, "I was surrounded by the talkative ones," the "tive" would get less stress still. Placement in a sentence does have bearing on stress, and yes, some iambs have stronger stressed syllables than other iambs. Further, in reading an iambic pentameter line like Keats' "When I have fears that I may cease to be" inevitably one will hear a slightly stronger stress within some of the iambs, "fears" and "cease," perhaps. But these exceptions do not overturn the rule. The DUMB/ grows STRANGE/ ly TALK/ a-TIVE. You ask: " Do you really want to argue that the unaccented syllable 'grows' is somehow less stressed when you read it aloud than the accented 'tive'? " I would answer, unhesitatingly, yes; to keep the iambic rhythm intact, one would unnaturally trip over 'grows' and thus pronounce it more quickly than "tive." One would. But would one? "Grows" resents like hell being lightly tripped over, just to satisfy the strange designs of a would-be iambic poet. GROWS might even insist on sounding like a ceasura, so that the line would sound like this: The DUMB/ *GROWS*/ STRANGE-ly/ TALK- a-tive. 'The DUMB' is an iamb, 'GROWS' is a ceasura, 'STRANGE-ly' is a trochee, and 'TALK-a-tive' is a dactyl. A mess, true, but this is not MY fault. If you think 'The dumb grows strangely talkative' is a solid iambic line, try speaking it the way you would speak, "When I have fears that I may cease" without it sounding ridiculous. Thomas Michael,
Great point.
“Grows” does get more stress than “tive” in your example above.
If you said, “I was surrounded by the talkative ones,” the “tive” would get less stress still. Placement in a sentence does have bearing on stress, and yes, some iambs have stronger stressed syllables than other iambs. Further, in reading an iambic pentameter line like Keats’ “When I have fears that I may cease to be” inevitably one will hear a slightly stronger stress within some of the iambs, “fears” and “cease,” perhaps.
But these exceptions do not overturn the rule.
The DUMB/ grows STRANGE/ ly TALK/ a-TIVE.
You ask: ” Do you really want to argue that the unaccented syllable ‘grows’ is somehow less stressed when you read it aloud than the accented ‘tive’? ”
I would answer, unhesitatingly, yes; to keep the iambic rhythm intact, one would unnaturally trip over ‘grows’ and thus pronounce it more quickly than “tive.”
One would.
But would one?
“Grows” resents like hell being lightly tripped over, just to satisfy the strange designs of a would-be iambic poet.
GROWS might even insist on sounding like a ceasura, so that the line would sound like this:
The DUMB/ *GROWS*/ STRANGE-ly/ TALK- a-tive.
‘The DUMB’ is an iamb, ‘GROWS’ is a ceasura, ‘STRANGE-ly’ is a trochee, and ‘TALK-a-tive’ is a dactyl.
A mess, true, but this is not MY fault.
If you think ‘The dumb grows strangely talkative’ is a solid iambic line, try speaking it the way you would speak, “When I have fears that I may cease” without it sounding ridiculous.
Thomas
Report this comment

]]> By: michael robbins http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/03/a-few-quick-questions-about-the-education-of-youth-circa-2009/#comment-7714 michael robbins Wed, 18 Mar 2009 22:44:29 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=1291#comment-7714 Thomas, if you'll read what I wrote carefully you'll see not only that I am describing an iamb but that what I say is self-evident & uncontroversial. We do indeed occasionally find lines in which, as Steele puts it, "one of the metrically unaccented syllables receives more speech stress than one of the metrically accented syllables." Here is a line of iambic tetrameter: The dumb grows strangely talkative Do you really want to argue that the unaccented syllable "grows" is somehow less stressed when you read it aloud than the accented "tive"? Obviously, when you read it aloud (read it aloud), "grows" receives more stress than "tive." Iambs are not created equal. All that matters is that WITHIN THE FOOT the first syllable is weaker than the second. An iambic rhythm is, simply, a pattern in which, generally speaking, an unaccented syllable is followed by one that is accented. There is nothing in that definition or in the history of English verse practice to suggest that in some cases (it's not uncommon at all, I can offer dozens of other examples if you'd like) one of those unaccented syllables, somewhere in the line, is actually stressed more strongly by the voice when read aloud than one of the stressed syllables. The only issue here at all is: why is Poe the only authority you will trust, in spite of all the evidence that he didn't know what he was talking about? Thomas, if you’ll read what I wrote carefully you’ll see not only that I am describing an iamb but that what I say is self-evident & uncontroversial. We do indeed occasionally find lines in which, as Steele puts it, “one of the metrically unaccented syllables receives more speech stress than one of the metrically accented syllables.” Here is a line of iambic tetrameter:
The dumb grows strangely talkative
Do you really want to argue that the unaccented syllable “grows” is somehow less stressed when you read it aloud than the accented “tive”? Obviously, when you read it aloud (read it aloud), “grows” receives more stress than “tive.” Iambs are not created equal. All that matters is that WITHIN THE FOOT the first syllable is weaker than the second. An iambic rhythm is, simply, a pattern in which, generally speaking, an unaccented syllable is followed by one that is accented. There is nothing in that definition or in the history of English verse practice to suggest that in some cases (it’s not uncommon at all, I can offer dozens of other examples if you’d like) one of those unaccented syllables, somewhere in the line, is actually stressed more strongly by the voice when read aloud than one of the stressed syllables.
The only issue here at all is: why is Poe the only authority you will trust, in spite of all the evidence that he didn’t know what he was talking about?
Report this comment

]]> By: thomas brady http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/03/a-few-quick-questions-about-the-education-of-youth-circa-2009/#comment-7713 thomas brady Wed, 18 Mar 2009 19:15:42 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=1291#comment-7713 Michael, That's great that you teach at the U. of Chicago. I am very aware that iambic feet vary, and that poets (including Poe) substitute feet for the sake of varietry. This is not the issue. Granting this in no way means that I am "wrong" to say that our ears can detect an iambic rhythm. It is not wrong, in other words, to say an iamb is an iamb, and why you would make such an assertion is very strange, indeed. You, however, are asserting (and I find this hard to believe) that an iamb is not an iamb: "an iambic foot of relatively light stress is sometimes followed by an iambic foot whose unstressed syllable actually receives more stress than the last foot's stressed one." The above does not describe an iambic rhythm. If iambs in any verse are not equal to each other, the iambic rhythm will falter. This faltering may be intentional, but this does not change the fact that an iamb is an iamb, the human ear can detect as much, and we are pleased in noting the similarity between iambs. The only issue here at all is: why does Poe make you so angry? Thomas Michael,
That’s great that you teach at the U. of Chicago.
I am very aware that iambic feet vary, and that poets (including Poe) substitute feet for the sake of varietry.
This is not the issue.
Granting this in no way means that I am “wrong” to say that our ears can detect an iambic rhythm.
It is not wrong, in other words, to say an iamb is an iamb, and why you would make such an assertion is very strange, indeed.
You, however, are asserting (and I find this hard to believe) that an iamb is not an iamb:
“an iambic foot of relatively light stress is sometimes followed by an iambic foot whose unstressed syllable actually receives more stress than the last foot’s stressed one.”
The above does not describe an iambic rhythm. If iambs in any verse are not equal to each other, the iambic rhythm will falter. This faltering may be intentional, but this does not change the fact that an iamb is an iamb, the human ear can detect as much, and we are pleased in noting the similarity between iambs.
The only issue here at all is: why does Poe make you so angry?
Thomas
Report this comment

]]> By: michael robbins http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/03/a-few-quick-questions-about-the-education-of-youth-circa-2009/#comment-7712 michael robbins Mon, 16 Mar 2009 20:01:36 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=1291#comment-7712 OK, Thomas, this is my last post on this subject. I've got two words for you: you're wrong. If you would, as I've urged you to do, consult some theorists of versification besides yr beloved inept Poe, you wouldn't embarrass yrself by proffering so obviously false a thesis as "Iambic feet are equal to each other." They clearly are not. If they were, all iambic poems would sound as stilted & monotonous as Poe's. In fact, variation is the key to iambic meter -- as Timothy Steele & others have shown, an iambic foot of relatively light stress is sometimes followed by an iambic foot whose unstressed syllable actually receives more stress than the last foot's stressed one. Furthermore, the peaks & valleys of stress pattern within a given line or a given poem are never equal. The voice grants more heavy stress & longer duration to certain syllables than to others. Indeed, as Steele & Attridge stress, emphasis is a relative matter: it is within the iambic foot that stress is gauged, not within our habitual speech patterns. Thus a syllable that is often unstressed in everyday speech might receive a stress by virtue of its place in the iambic pattern. This is a lesson Annie Finch could learn as well. I've been teaching poetry & meter for 15 years, including most recently at the University of Chicago. I don't need anyone to lecture me on whom I could learn something from. OK, Thomas, this is my last post on this subject.
I’ve got two words for you: you’re wrong.
If you would, as I’ve urged you to do, consult some theorists of versification besides yr beloved inept Poe, you wouldn’t embarrass yrself by proffering so obviously false a thesis as “Iambic feet are equal to each other.” They clearly are not. If they were, all iambic poems would sound as stilted & monotonous as Poe’s. In fact, variation is the key to iambic meter — as Timothy Steele & others have shown, an iambic foot of relatively light stress is sometimes followed by an iambic foot whose unstressed syllable actually receives more stress than the last foot’s stressed one. Furthermore, the peaks & valleys of stress pattern within a given line or a given poem are never equal. The voice grants more heavy stress & longer duration to certain syllables than to others. Indeed, as Steele & Attridge stress, emphasis is a relative matter: it is within the iambic foot that stress is gauged, not within our habitual speech patterns. Thus a syllable that is often unstressed in everyday speech might receive a stress by virtue of its place in the iambic pattern. This is a lesson Annie Finch could learn as well.
I’ve been teaching poetry & meter for 15 years, including most recently at the University of Chicago. I don’t need anyone to lecture me on whom I could learn something from.
Report this comment

]]> By: thomas brady http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/03/a-few-quick-questions-about-the-education-of-youth-circa-2009/#comment-7711 thomas brady Mon, 16 Mar 2009 18:40:43 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=1291#comment-7711 Michael Robbins, I've got one word for you: equality. Iambic feet are equal to each other. Five equal feet in a row is pleasing. The pleasing is natural. True, the iambic pentameter, per se, may not, in itself, hold a special place in our brains, but the principle, of which the iambic pentameter is a part, certainly resides there. You also might learn something from the following: Verse originates in the human enjoyment of equality, fitness. To this enjoyment, also, all the moods of verse, rhythm, metre, stanza, rhyme, alliteration, the refrain, and other analagous effects, are to be referred. To return to equality. Its idea embraces those of similarity, proportion, identity, repetition, and adaptation or fitness. It might not be very difficult to go even behind the idea of equality, and show both how and why it is that the human nature takes pleasure in it, but such an investigation would, for any purpose now in view, be supererogatory. It is sufficient that the fact is undeniable — the fact that man derives enjoyment from his perception of equality. Let us examine a crystal. We are at once interested by the equality between the sides and between the angles of one of its faces; the equality of the sides pleases us, that of the angles doubles the pleasure. On bringing to view a second face in all respects similar to the first, this pleasure seems to be squared; on bringing to view a third it appears to be cubed, and so on. I have no doubt, indeed, that the delight experienced, if measurable, would be found to have exact mathematical relation such as I suggest, that is to say, as far as a certain point, beyond which there would be a decrease in similar relations. The perception of pleasure in the equality of sounds is the principle of Music. Unpractised ears can appreciate only simple equalities, such as are found in ballad airs. While comparing one simple sound with another they are too much occupied to be capable of comparing the equality subsisting between these two simple sounds taken conjointly, and two other similar simple sounds taken conjointly. Practised ears, on the other hand, appreciate both equalities at the same instant, although it is absurd to suppose that both are heard at the same instant. One is heard and appreciated from itself, the other is heard by the memory, and the instant glides into and is confounded with the secondary appreciation. Highly cultivated musical taste in this manner enjoys not only these double equalities, all appreciated at once, but takes pleasurable cognizance, through memory, of equalities the members of which occur at intervals so great that the uncultivated taste loses them altogether. That this latter can properly estimate or decide on the merits of what is called scientific music is of course impossible. But scientific music has no claim to intrinsic excellence; it is fit for scientific ears alone. In its excess it is the triumph of the physique over the morale of music. The sentiment is overwhelmed by the sense. On the whole, the advocates of the simpler melody and harmony have infinitely the best of the argument, although there has been very little of real argument on the subject. In verse, which cannot be better designated than as an inferior or less capable Music, there is, happily, little chance for complexity. Its rigidly simple character not even Science — not even Pedantry can greatly pervert. The rudiment of verse may possibly be found in the spondee. The very germ of a thought seeking satisfaction in equality of sound would result in the construction of words of two syllables, equally accented. In corroboration of this idea we find that spondees most abound in the most ancient tongues. The second step we can easily suppose to be the comparison, that is to say, the collocation of two spondees — or two words composed each of a spondee. The third step would be the juxtaposition of three of these words. By this time the perception of monotone would induce further consideration; and thus arises what Leigh Hunt so flounders in discussing under the title of "The Principle of Variety in Uniformity." Of course there is no principle in the case — nor in maintaining it. The "Uniformity" is the principle — the "Variety" is but the principle's natural safeguard from self-destruction by excess of self. "Uniformity," besides, is the very worst word that could have been chosen for the expression of the general idea at which it aims. The perception of monotone having given rise to an attempt at its relief, the first thought in this new direction would be that of collating two or more words formed each of two syllables differently accented (that is to say, short and long) but having the same order in each word — in other terms, of collating two or more iambuses, or two or more trochees. The success of the experiment with the trochees or iambuses (the one would have suggested the other) must have led to a trial of dactyls or anapæsts — natural dactyls or anapæsts — dactylic or anapæstic words. And now some degree of complexity has been attained. There is an appreciation, first, of the equality between the several dactyls or anapæsts, and, secondly, of that between the long syllable and the two short conjointly. We have now gone so far as to suppose men constructing indefinite sequences of spondaic, iambic, trochaic, dactylic, or anapæstic words. In extending these sequences, they would be again arrested by the sense of monotone. A succession of spondees would immediately have displeased; one of iambuses or of trochees, on account of the variety included within the foot itself, would have taken longer to displease; one of dactyls or anapæsts still longer; but even the last, if extended very far, must have become wearisome. The idea, first, of curtailing, and secondly, of defining the length of a sequence, would thus at once have arisen. Here then is the line, of verse proper. The principle of equality being constantly at the bottom of the whole process, lines would naturally be made, in the first instance equal in the number of their feet; in the second instance, there would be variation in the mere number; one line would be twice as long as another; then one would be some less obvious multiple of another; then still less obvious proportions would be adopted: — nevertheless there would be proportion, that is to say a phase of equality, still. --E.A.P. Thomas Michael Robbins,
I’ve got one word for you: equality.
Iambic feet are equal to each other. Five equal feet in a row is pleasing. The pleasing is natural.
True, the iambic pentameter, per se, may not, in itself, hold a special place in our brains, but the principle, of which the iambic pentameter is a part, certainly resides there.
You also might learn something from the following:
Verse originates in the human enjoyment of equality, fitness. To this enjoyment, also, all the moods of verse, rhythm, metre, stanza, rhyme, alliteration, the refrain, and other analagous effects, are to be referred.
To return to equality. Its idea embraces those of similarity, proportion, identity, repetition, and adaptation or fitness. It might not be very difficult to go even behind the idea of equality, and show both how and why it is that the human nature takes pleasure in it, but such an investigation would, for any purpose now in view, be supererogatory. It is sufficient that the fact is undeniable — the fact that man derives enjoyment from his perception of equality. Let us examine a crystal. We are at once interested by the equality between the sides and between the angles of one of its faces; the equality of the sides pleases us, that of the angles doubles the pleasure. On bringing to view a second face in all respects similar to the first, this pleasure seems to be squared; on bringing to view a third it appears to be cubed, and so on. I have no doubt, indeed, that the delight experienced, if measurable, would be found to have exact mathematical relation such as I suggest, that is to say, as far as a certain point, beyond which there would be a decrease in similar relations.
The perception of pleasure in the equality of sounds is the principle of Music. Unpractised ears can appreciate only simple equalities, such as are found in ballad airs. While comparing one simple sound with another they are too much occupied to be capable of comparing the equality subsisting between these two simple sounds taken conjointly, and two other similar simple sounds taken conjointly. Practised ears, on the other hand, appreciate both equalities at the same instant, although it is absurd to suppose that both are heard at the same instant. One is heard and appreciated from itself, the other is heard by the memory, and the instant glides into and is confounded with the secondary appreciation. Highly cultivated musical taste in this manner enjoys not only these double equalities, all appreciated at once, but takes pleasurable cognizance, through memory, of equalities the members of which occur at intervals so great that the uncultivated taste loses them altogether. That this latter can properly estimate or decide on the merits of what is called scientific music is of course impossible. But scientific music has no claim to intrinsic excellence; it is fit for scientific ears alone. In its excess it is the triumph of the physique over the morale of music. The sentiment is overwhelmed by the sense. On the whole, the advocates of the simpler melody and harmony have infinitely the best of the argument, although there has been very little of real argument on the subject.
In verse, which cannot be better designated than as an inferior or less capable Music, there is, happily, little chance for complexity. Its rigidly simple character not even Science — not even Pedantry can greatly pervert.
The rudiment of verse may possibly be found in the spondee. The very germ of a thought seeking satisfaction in equality of sound would result in the construction of words of two syllables, equally accented. In corroboration of this idea we find that spondees most abound in the most ancient tongues. The second step we can easily suppose to be the comparison, that is to say, the collocation of two spondees — or two words composed each of a spondee. The third step would be the juxtaposition of three of these words. By this time the perception of monotone would induce further consideration; and thus arises what Leigh Hunt so flounders in discussing under the title of “The Principle of Variety in Uniformity.” Of course there is no principle in the case — nor in maintaining it. The “Uniformity” is the principle — the “Variety” is but the principle’s natural safeguard from self-destruction by excess of self. “Uniformity,” besides, is the very worst word that could have been chosen for the expression of the general idea at which it aims.
The perception of monotone having given rise to an attempt at its relief, the first thought in this new direction would be that of collating two or more words formed each of two syllables differently accented (that is to say, short and long) but having the same order in each word — in other terms, of collating two or more iambuses, or two or more trochees.
The success of the experiment with the trochees or iambuses (the one would have suggested the other) must have led to a trial of dactyls or anapæsts — natural dactyls or anapæsts — dactylic or anapæstic words. And now some degree of complexity has been attained. There is an appreciation, first, of the equality between the several dactyls or anapæsts, and, secondly, of that between the long syllable and the two short conjointly.
We have now gone so far as to suppose men constructing indefinite sequences of spondaic, iambic, trochaic, dactylic, or anapæstic words. In extending these sequences, they would be again arrested by the sense of monotone. A succession of spondees would immediately have displeased; one of iambuses or of trochees, on account of the variety included within the foot itself, would have taken longer to displease; one of dactyls or anapæsts still longer; but even the last, if extended very far, must have become wearisome. The idea, first, of curtailing, and secondly, of defining the length of a sequence, would thus at once have arisen. Here then is the line, of verse proper.
The principle of equality being constantly at the bottom of the whole process, lines would naturally be made, in the first instance equal in the number of their feet; in the second instance, there would be variation in the mere number; one line would be twice as long as another; then one would be some less obvious multiple of another; then still less obvious proportions would be adopted: — nevertheless there would be proportion, that is to say a phase of equality, still.
–E.A.P.
Thomas
Report this comment

]]> By: john http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/03/a-few-quick-questions-about-the-education-of-youth-circa-2009/#comment-7710 john Sun, 15 Mar 2009 16:08:35 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=1291#comment-7710 Don, I was reading a Woody Guthrie bio last night, and learned that in 1939 he barnstormed around the migrant labor camps in California with actor Will Geer. Geer, who is most famous today for having played Grandpa Walton on TV in the '70s, would memorize a poem a day and recite poetry to the farmworkers. People really liked their show. Don,
I was reading a Woody Guthrie bio last night, and learned that in 1939 he barnstormed around the migrant labor camps in California with actor Will Geer. Geer, who is most famous today for having played Grandpa Walton on TV in the ’70s, would memorize a poem a day and recite poetry to the farmworkers. People really liked their show.
Report this comment

]]> By: Justin Cook http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/03/a-few-quick-questions-about-the-education-of-youth-circa-2009/#comment-7709 Justin Cook Sun, 15 Mar 2009 16:08:32 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=1291#comment-7709 Henry’s comment about how ancient bards used metrical patterns to remember content, not lines, was insightful. In that case, lines are just the container and not integral to the contained. Today that artifice has been turned on its head I guess. Also, the idea that metaphor is a “shorthand parallelism” is an interesting conjecture about the evolution of language/thought. Can you point me towards any resources on that? I think Jung’s common unconsciousness, not as a metaphysical realm, but as a kind of “buzzing” in our genetic makeup, might lend credence to the idea that some of our more sophisticated linguistic devises are innate. Maybe not line-breaks, the ability to do scansion, or to appreciate enjambment, but metaphor might be innate, even if it isn’t triggered till the abstract thought stage somewhere in the horror of puberty. The Art Instinct by Dennis Dutton looks at the idea of creativity as it relates to evolution. I haven’t read it, but saw a great interview of the author on bloggingheads. It seems with the human genome project and all science is learning, some language theorist should be out there saying something new, like Dutton. Anybody know of anything? Henry’s comment about how ancient bards used metrical patterns to remember content, not lines, was insightful. In that case, lines are just the container and not integral to the contained. Today that artifice has been turned on its head I guess. Also, the idea that metaphor is a “shorthand parallelism” is an interesting conjecture about the evolution of language/thought. Can you point me towards any resources on that?
I think Jung’s common unconsciousness, not as a metaphysical realm, but as a kind of “buzzing” in our genetic makeup, might lend credence to the idea that some of our more sophisticated linguistic devises are innate. Maybe not line-breaks, the ability to do scansion, or to appreciate enjambment, but metaphor might be innate, even if it isn’t triggered till the abstract thought stage somewhere in the horror of puberty.
The Art Instinct by Dennis Dutton looks at the idea of creativity as it relates to evolution. I haven’t read it, but saw a great interview of the author on bloggingheads. It seems with the human genome project and all science is learning, some language theorist should be out there saying something new, like Dutton. Anybody know of anything?
Report this comment

]]> By: michael robbins http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/03/a-few-quick-questions-about-the-education-of-youth-circa-2009/#comment-7708 michael robbins Sat, 14 Mar 2009 16:41:48 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=1291#comment-7708 And also, yes, the idea of a given meter's inhering "naturally" "in the brain" is at best nonsensical. I assume you're familiar with Chomsky's innateness hypothesis? Please elaborate on how the cultural artifice of alternating stress patterns is somehow compatible with it. Perhaps employ materials from yr Theory of Knowledge unit. And also, yes, the idea of a given meter’s inhering “naturally” “in the brain” is at best nonsensical. I assume you’re familiar with Chomsky’s innateness hypothesis? Please elaborate on how the cultural artifice of alternating stress patterns is somehow compatible with it. Perhaps employ materials from yr Theory of Knowledge unit.
Report this comment

]]> By: michael robbins http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/03/a-few-quick-questions-about-the-education-of-youth-circa-2009/#comment-7707 michael robbins Sat, 14 Mar 2009 16:38:59 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=1291#comment-7707 Heh. I hold children & English teachers to different standards, but here's a tip: urging people you don't know not to procreate is so much greater a breach of civility than correcting someone's solecisms that yr forthcoming "Theory of Knowledge unit" (ahem) would be best directed inward. So, you know, you sure told me! Heh. I hold children & English teachers to different standards, but here’s a tip: urging people you don’t know not to procreate is so much greater a breach of civility than correcting someone’s solecisms that yr forthcoming “Theory of Knowledge unit” (ahem) would be best directed inward. So, you know, you sure told me!
Report this comment

]]> By: john http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/03/a-few-quick-questions-about-the-education-of-youth-circa-2009/#comment-7706 john Sat, 14 Mar 2009 13:41:18 +0000 http://pf/harriet/?p=1291#comment-7706 Don, I "remembered" that thread only because I was searching for the story of Maurice Barrymore reciting, and I'd found that I'd told it already here at Harriet. I was shocked to see that it was over a year ago! Either we're having fun, or time rolls faster now that I'm "over the hill" -- time's flying! Wyatt Mason has a good point about the deterioration of memory! I also agree that "Memorizing poetry has social utility," and having poems by heart can be calming too. (I had to ask Google whether I've told this story here before too, and I have, in part.) My grandpa memorized "Abou Ben Adhem" in order to join his college frat in the 1920s. I found the poem in a 1960s anthology of "popular poetry" that I bought at a flea market in the early '80s. A few years later while we were hanging out my grandpa randomly recited the first line, which I recognized and asked about. He told me why he knew it; I memorized it to please him. And now if I have trouble sleeping, I recite it to myself slowly and it helps knock me out. Soporific! I'm not sure Leigh Hunt would be pleased. But I love his poem and have recited it at parties. Its vision of humanistic religious pluralism has seemed more necessary than ever in the 21st century. Here's the poem, if anybody doesn't know it and is interested: <a href="http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/minstrels/poems/153.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/minstrels/poems/153.html</a> Don, I “remembered” that thread only because I was searching for the story of Maurice Barrymore reciting, and I’d found that I’d told it already here at Harriet. I was shocked to see that it was over a year ago! Either we’re having fun, or time rolls faster now that I’m “over the hill” — time’s flying! Wyatt Mason has a good point about the deterioration of memory!
I also agree that “Memorizing poetry has social utility,” and having poems by heart can be calming too. (I had to ask Google whether I’ve told this story here before too, and I have, in part.) My grandpa memorized “Abou Ben Adhem” in order to join his college frat in the 1920s. I found the poem in a 1960s anthology of “popular poetry” that I bought at a flea market in the early ’80s. A few years later while we were hanging out my grandpa randomly recited the first line, which I recognized and asked about. He told me why he knew it; I memorized it to please him. And now if I have trouble sleeping, I recite it to myself slowly and it helps knock me out. Soporific! I’m not sure Leigh Hunt would be pleased. But I love his poem and have recited it at parties. Its vision of humanistic religious pluralism has seemed more necessary than ever in the 21st century.
Here’s the poem, if anybody doesn’t know it and is interested:
http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/minstrels/poems/153.html
Report this comment

]]>