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	<title>Comments on: In the stacks</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/07/in-the-stacks/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/07/in-the-stacks/</link>
	<description>A blog from the Poetry Foundation where contemporary poets debate classic and contemporary poetry from America and around the world.</description>
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		<title>By: Stephanie Brown</title>
		<link>http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/07/in-the-stacks/#comment-22061</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephanie Brown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Aug 2009 23:30:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=4341#comment-22061</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Joel, my pleasure to report!  Will be glad to drop by.  Stephanie</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Joel, my pleasure to report!  Will be glad to drop by.  Stephanie</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Joel Brouwer</title>
		<link>http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/07/in-the-stacks/#comment-21930</link>
		<dc:creator>Joel Brouwer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Aug 2009 19:23:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=4341#comment-21930</guid>
		<description>Stephanie, Thanks so very much for your firsthand report. The statistics are fascinating and illuminating -- 2000 kids in summer reading programs! -- and your spirit of service is inspiring. 

I did a year of SLIS at UW-Madison ten years ago, and was looking forward to my second and final year and a career in the stacks when circumstances intervened, as they sometimes will. I like imagining, now and again, going back. Sorry to sound smarmy, but it&#039;s always struck me as the noblest possible profession. 

So anyways, thanks. I hope you&#039;ll check back here now and again, to see if others have responses to your comments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stephanie, Thanks so very much for your firsthand report. The statistics are fascinating and illuminating &#8212; 2000 kids in summer reading programs! &#8212; and your spirit of service is inspiring. </p>
<p>I did a year of SLIS at UW-Madison ten years ago, and was looking forward to my second and final year and a career in the stacks when circumstances intervened, as they sometimes will. I like imagining, now and again, going back. Sorry to sound smarmy, but it&#8217;s always struck me as the noblest possible profession. </p>
<p>So anyways, thanks. I hope you&#8217;ll check back here now and again, to see if others have responses to your comments.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Stephanie Brown</title>
		<link>http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/07/in-the-stacks/#comment-21905</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephanie Brown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Aug 2009 03:54:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=4341#comment-21905</guid>
		<description>Hi Joel,

Some random thoughts:

I could write so much about this topic (on edit: and oh, I did!).  First of all, though, you went to library school?  I didn&#039;t know that. 

The school I went to some twenty years ago lost its ALA seal of approval (UC Berkeley) about ten years ago because it went into information as pure pursuit and lost interest in libraries.  

At any rate, twenty years ago we were worried that libraries were going away, but they have not. 

Information vs. library as place: this is a divide that I see in my colleagues. Some have a huge interest in information and remote access, Web 2.0 and Library 2.0, Second Life, all very old discussions now in the library world; I&#039;ve met some Silicon Valley librarians and they are much plugged in to the information frontiers there; it is the center of the library world, if one exits.  San Jose State, in the heart of the information valley, is, I think, probably the leading light in library education today.  It has recently eliminated its &quot;on site&quot; classes for completely online coursework.  The new librarians I hire all have gone there and they are super-techy and overtrained for what they are asked to do, but then again, I think I was the same way when I got out of school.  I had to teach one of my librarians how to do reader&#039;s advisory (book suggestions) for kids&#039; books by just suggesting that she think of books she herself read as a kid; at the same time she can build a database.  I adapt and have adapted over time to all changing forms of information forms and their retrieval; the cyber life of libraries is interesting to me but boring after a while--because libraries adapt to information &quot;frames,&quot; if you will. and always have: papyrus, books, computers, eBooks, audiobooks, eAudio books, etc.  Libraries are very adaptable and always have been.  

My interest in the last few years of my twenty year career in public libraries is the library as a space--sometimes referred to as a &quot;third space&quot; where people can go to read, think, work, talk, have meetings, story times, talk about books and ideas, etc.  A place to sit. It sounds really mundane and dull and does not seem to interest some of my colleagues at all but I think it is of huge value to the culture. 
 
I manage a large regional public library: 30,00 square feet, 38 staff members. Our circulation statistics have gone way up since the recession started, but it was very busy anyway: in July of this year we had over 60,000 people come in the door versus 45,000 this month last year; last year we checked out some 60,000 items and this year we are looking at 75,000!  In 31 days.  We have 34 computers and they are almost always in use, as well as wireless access; we are very busy as a place to work--many people are giving up internet access and are looking for jobs, but they were there last year and the year before that--just not in quite as staggering of numbers. 

We also help them find whatever it is they want. The public library is a lifeline to people, it is the place to study for the many first generation Americans who come to our building. I feel strongly that it adds value to the life of the community and to the lives of all Americans. I truly feel inspired by its &quot;democratic vistas&quot; every day of my life. The world walks through the door--every kind of human being you can think of, and I love that about the place. Finally, you would be surprised at the conversations people have with librarians!  It is like being a hairdresser or bartender--and I love that part of the job. It is a people job. 

Libraries, at least public libraries, are busy and active places.  Libraries are corny, not hip; they&#039;re without mood music and cute merchandise and all that--like one might find in a cool bookstore or a coffee shop.  On the other hand, we make sure that we provide service to kids who want to play online games even if adults complain about it, we offer book clubs to old women that no one wants to talk to (take offense at that, but it&#039;s true and they&#039;ve told me so); we offer ESL and literacy classes, we save people money on their entertainment and scholarly pursuits and so much more.   

I have recently read a Pew study that said, surprisingly, that younger people (in their 30&#039;s) use libraries more than do people my age (late 40&#039;s and up) and older. This probably has to do with the fact that they are revisiting for kids&#039; homework purposes. Not all of them will keep coming to the library, but many of them will. Often this person begins her visit by saying, &quot;I haven&#039;t been in a library in twenty years&quot; and now she is back, because she is helping her kid with homework.  To me, that is the point that I try very hard to make her feel welcome and at home--and often that person becomes a regular--or her kid  becomes a library user. 
 
I have always loved libraries, all kinds of them, enjoyed them at the universities I attended; there is just a great feeling in them.  It is an indescribable feeling.  On the other hand, I know many, many people who never use them and never did, even when their bookish lives were likely to propel them there--and I think it will always be that way. Our summer reading program had 2,000 kids sign up this summer, and some of them will never come back, but some will come back next year, and the year after, and in ten, twenty, thirty years, as I did, because I love the place as well as the information--whatever form it takes.

Thanks for giving me a forum.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Joel,</p>
<p>Some random thoughts:</p>
<p>I could write so much about this topic (on edit: and oh, I did!).  First of all, though, you went to library school?  I didn&#8217;t know that. </p>
<p>The school I went to some twenty years ago lost its ALA seal of approval (UC Berkeley) about ten years ago because it went into information as pure pursuit and lost interest in libraries.  </p>
<p>At any rate, twenty years ago we were worried that libraries were going away, but they have not. </p>
<p>Information vs. library as place: this is a divide that I see in my colleagues. Some have a huge interest in information and remote access, Web 2.0 and Library 2.0, Second Life, all very old discussions now in the library world; I&#8217;ve met some Silicon Valley librarians and they are much plugged in to the information frontiers there; it is the center of the library world, if one exits.  San Jose State, in the heart of the information valley, is, I think, probably the leading light in library education today.  It has recently eliminated its &#8220;on site&#8221; classes for completely online coursework.  The new librarians I hire all have gone there and they are super-techy and overtrained for what they are asked to do, but then again, I think I was the same way when I got out of school.  I had to teach one of my librarians how to do reader&#8217;s advisory (book suggestions) for kids&#8217; books by just suggesting that she think of books she herself read as a kid; at the same time she can build a database.  I adapt and have adapted over time to all changing forms of information forms and their retrieval; the cyber life of libraries is interesting to me but boring after a while&#8211;because libraries adapt to information &#8220;frames,&#8221; if you will. and always have: papyrus, books, computers, eBooks, audiobooks, eAudio books, etc.  Libraries are very adaptable and always have been.  </p>
<p>My interest in the last few years of my twenty year career in public libraries is the library as a space&#8211;sometimes referred to as a &#8220;third space&#8221; where people can go to read, think, work, talk, have meetings, story times, talk about books and ideas, etc.  A place to sit. It sounds really mundane and dull and does not seem to interest some of my colleagues at all but I think it is of huge value to the culture. </p>
<p>I manage a large regional public library: 30,00 square feet, 38 staff members. Our circulation statistics have gone way up since the recession started, but it was very busy anyway: in July of this year we had over 60,000 people come in the door versus 45,000 this month last year; last year we checked out some 60,000 items and this year we are looking at 75,000!  In 31 days.  We have 34 computers and they are almost always in use, as well as wireless access; we are very busy as a place to work&#8211;many people are giving up internet access and are looking for jobs, but they were there last year and the year before that&#8211;just not in quite as staggering of numbers. </p>
<p>We also help them find whatever it is they want. The public library is a lifeline to people, it is the place to study for the many first generation Americans who come to our building. I feel strongly that it adds value to the life of the community and to the lives of all Americans. I truly feel inspired by its &#8220;democratic vistas&#8221; every day of my life. The world walks through the door&#8211;every kind of human being you can think of, and I love that about the place. Finally, you would be surprised at the conversations people have with librarians!  It is like being a hairdresser or bartender&#8211;and I love that part of the job. It is a people job. </p>
<p>Libraries, at least public libraries, are busy and active places.  Libraries are corny, not hip; they&#8217;re without mood music and cute merchandise and all that&#8211;like one might find in a cool bookstore or a coffee shop.  On the other hand, we make sure that we provide service to kids who want to play online games even if adults complain about it, we offer book clubs to old women that no one wants to talk to (take offense at that, but it&#8217;s true and they&#8217;ve told me so); we offer ESL and literacy classes, we save people money on their entertainment and scholarly pursuits and so much more.   </p>
<p>I have recently read a Pew study that said, surprisingly, that younger people (in their 30&#8217;s) use libraries more than do people my age (late 40&#8217;s and up) and older. This probably has to do with the fact that they are revisiting for kids&#8217; homework purposes. Not all of them will keep coming to the library, but many of them will. Often this person begins her visit by saying, &#8220;I haven&#8217;t been in a library in twenty years&#8221; and now she is back, because she is helping her kid with homework.  To me, that is the point that I try very hard to make her feel welcome and at home&#8211;and often that person becomes a regular&#8211;or her kid  becomes a library user. </p>
<p>I have always loved libraries, all kinds of them, enjoyed them at the universities I attended; there is just a great feeling in them.  It is an indescribable feeling.  On the other hand, I know many, many people who never use them and never did, even when their bookish lives were likely to propel them there&#8211;and I think it will always be that way. Our summer reading program had 2,000 kids sign up this summer, and some of them will never come back, but some will come back next year, and the year after, and in ten, twenty, thirty years, as I did, because I love the place as well as the information&#8211;whatever form it takes.</p>
<p>Thanks for giving me a forum.</p>
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		<title>By: Kent Johnson</title>
		<link>http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/07/in-the-stacks/#comment-21130</link>
		<dc:creator>Kent Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 17:06:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=4341#comment-21130</guid>
		<description>I wrote a piece at Jacket magazine about a trip I took with Forrest Gander a couple years back, to Bosnia-Herzegovina. There&#039;s some stuff in there about the National Library in Sarajevo, which was purposely shelled with incendiary munitions by the Serbs, during the city&#039;s siege in the early 90s. There&#039;s also a photo of the now-shuttered front doors and the memorial plaque outside. What was lost in the destruction is incalculable. One precious item that was saved is the Sarajevo Haggadah, one of the most beautiful illuminated Jewish texts in the world. This was the second time it was saved: the first was during WWII, when Muslim scholars risked their lives to hide it from the Nazis (there was an article about this incredible tale in the New Yorker a year or so ago). I talk a bit about that, in the piece, too. Anyway, here&#039;s the link to the article:

http://jacketmagazine.com/35/bosnia-diary.shtml

Kent</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wrote a piece at Jacket magazine about a trip I took with Forrest Gander a couple years back, to Bosnia-Herzegovina. There&#8217;s some stuff in there about the National Library in Sarajevo, which was purposely shelled with incendiary munitions by the Serbs, during the city&#8217;s siege in the early 90s. There&#8217;s also a photo of the now-shuttered front doors and the memorial plaque outside. What was lost in the destruction is incalculable. One precious item that was saved is the Sarajevo Haggadah, one of the most beautiful illuminated Jewish texts in the world. This was the second time it was saved: the first was during WWII, when Muslim scholars risked their lives to hide it from the Nazis (there was an article about this incredible tale in the New Yorker a year or so ago). I talk a bit about that, in the piece, too. Anyway, here&#8217;s the link to the article:</p>
<p><a href="http://jacketmagazine.com/35/bosnia-diary.shtml" rel="nofollow">http://jacketmagazine.com/35/bosnia-diary.shtml</a></p>
<p>Kent</p>
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		<title>By: AMF</title>
		<link>http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/07/in-the-stacks/#comment-21079</link>
		<dc:creator>AMF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 02:23:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=4341#comment-21079</guid>
		<description>rock on...another downfall of electronic devices verses books, we never know what our neighbors are reading anymore...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>rock on&#8230;another downfall of electronic devices verses books, we never know what our neighbors are reading anymore&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Joel Brouwer</title>
		<link>http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/07/in-the-stacks/#comment-21040</link>
		<dc:creator>Joel Brouwer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 20:41:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=4341#comment-21040</guid>
		<description>AMF, Next time I&#039;m in an airport, I&#039;m going to imagine that all the road warriors are reading Tender Buttons on their Blackberries. Thanks for the wonderful image!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AMF, Next time I&#8217;m in an airport, I&#8217;m going to imagine that all the road warriors are reading Tender Buttons on their Blackberries. Thanks for the wonderful image!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: AMF</title>
		<link>http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/07/in-the-stacks/#comment-20955</link>
		<dc:creator>AMF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 02:18:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=4341#comment-20955</guid>
		<description>Enjoyed your ruminations on libraries. I&#039;m going to guess that you are an academic librarian since your main focus was on research and books... I only say that since I work as a public librarian(not really a librarian-don&#039;t hold MLS) in an affluent suburb and the focus seems to be more on multi-media checkouts than books--especially in the last ten years. Our circulation numbers have gone through the roof in the last five for CDs, DVDs and books on CDS. The latest and greatest within the public library system seems to be utilities like WILBOR--allowing for remote BOCD downloads and the latest media checkouts, i.e. HD, Blu-Ray. We also have evolved with the 21st century and are utilizing Facebook and Twitter to reach out to our patrons. 

On a personal note, I still love books, but I find more and more use for digital formats. It is more green, takes less space and highly portable. I recently purchased a blackberry and have downloaded &quot;The Wasteland&quot; &amp; &quot;Tender Buttons&quot; via Project Gutenburg and read while walking the dog. Love being able to check out (literally) the old stuff on my BB on pure whim and read right there in the park. The book will always have its place, but digital will certainly be the choice of the upcoming generations. They are the one&#039;s asking about Kindle at the library.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Enjoyed your ruminations on libraries. I&#8217;m going to guess that you are an academic librarian since your main focus was on research and books&#8230; I only say that since I work as a public librarian(not really a librarian-don&#8217;t hold MLS) in an affluent suburb and the focus seems to be more on multi-media checkouts than books&#8211;especially in the last ten years. Our circulation numbers have gone through the roof in the last five for CDs, DVDs and books on CDS. The latest and greatest within the public library system seems to be utilities like WILBOR&#8211;allowing for remote BOCD downloads and the latest media checkouts, i.e. HD, Blu-Ray. We also have evolved with the 21st century and are utilizing Facebook and Twitter to reach out to our patrons. </p>
<p>On a personal note, I still love books, but I find more and more use for digital formats. It is more green, takes less space and highly portable. I recently purchased a blackberry and have downloaded &#8220;The Wasteland&#8221; &amp; &#8220;Tender Buttons&#8221; via Project Gutenburg and read while walking the dog. Love being able to check out (literally) the old stuff on my BB on pure whim and read right there in the park. The book will always have its place, but digital will certainly be the choice of the upcoming generations. They are the one&#8217;s asking about Kindle at the library.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/07/in-the-stacks/#comment-20919</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 19:19:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=4341#comment-20919</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s funny what you learn and experience in your post-high school years.

Graduating from HS was a complete release for me, and the subsequent years in college were my most eye-opening and prolific. Some of the best and most enlightening experiences I had were at UNH&#039;s diamond library: in the basement discovering the foundations of American Routes music in the media center, or hopping from one floor to another to compare the journals of Columbus and De Soto. Something about walking into that building out of the cold Durham, N.H. air and into the atmosphere of that library just can&#039;t be recreated. 

Granted, I wasn&#039;t a top student, but I fell in love with reading and writing in my college years, and now both are a huge irreversible part of who I am. I wasn&#039;t academically enthusiastic on the level of some overachievers, but some of the most brilliant minds in the past century and further didn&#039;t even go to college, so I considered myself lucky, and if there was any spot in which I could find solace for educational purposes, it was the Diamond Library.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s funny what you learn and experience in your post-high school years.</p>
<p>Graduating from HS was a complete release for me, and the subsequent years in college were my most eye-opening and prolific. Some of the best and most enlightening experiences I had were at UNH&#8217;s diamond library: in the basement discovering the foundations of American Routes music in the media center, or hopping from one floor to another to compare the journals of Columbus and De Soto. Something about walking into that building out of the cold Durham, N.H. air and into the atmosphere of that library just can&#8217;t be recreated. </p>
<p>Granted, I wasn&#8217;t a top student, but I fell in love with reading and writing in my college years, and now both are a huge irreversible part of who I am. I wasn&#8217;t academically enthusiastic on the level of some overachievers, but some of the most brilliant minds in the past century and further didn&#8217;t even go to college, so I considered myself lucky, and if there was any spot in which I could find solace for educational purposes, it was the Diamond Library.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: John Oliver Simon</title>
		<link>http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/07/in-the-stacks/#comment-20908</link>
		<dc:creator>John Oliver Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 16:47:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=4341#comment-20908</guid>
		<description>The universe (which some call the Library) is composed of an indefinite, perhaps infinite, number of hexagonal galleries, each ventilated by a large airshaft surrounded by a low railing...

...I dare propose a solution to the ancient problem: &lt;i&gt; The Library is infinite and recurrent. &lt;i&gt; If a traveler were to continue far enough in any direction, he would find after many centuries that the same volumes would repeat themselves in the same random order (which, repeated, would be an order: the Order). My solitude rejoices in this elegant hope.

—Jorge Luis Borges, &quot;The Library of Babel&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The universe (which some call the Library) is composed of an indefinite, perhaps infinite, number of hexagonal galleries, each ventilated by a large airshaft surrounded by a low railing&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8230;I dare propose a solution to the ancient problem: <i> The Library is infinite and recurrent. </i><i> If a traveler were to continue far enough in any direction, he would find after many centuries that the same volumes would repeat themselves in the same random order (which, repeated, would be an order: the Order). My solitude rejoices in this elegant hope.</p>
<p>—Jorge Luis Borges, &#8220;The Library of Babel&#8221;</i></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Ramona</title>
		<link>http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/07/in-the-stacks/#comment-20907</link>
		<dc:creator>Ramona</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 16:46:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=4341#comment-20907</guid>
		<description>The Highlandtown branch of the Enoch Pratt Public Library system in Baltimore was the first place I was allowed to walk by myself.  It was two blocks from the row house where we grew up and had a wonderful librarian (I can only remember one) who loved children.  Later, when we moved to the suburbs, the library was much bigger, better-equipped, and had a far larger selection; I loved it, too, and could walk there, although it was about a mile or mile and a half.  Growing up, when I was reading four or five books a week, the library was a gallery of wonders.  Even now, I rarely buy a book, and almost never for myself.  If I&#039;d had to rely on my own financial resources to keep me in literature, I would be in serious debt or, more likely, seriously ignorant.  During college and graduate school, I was never far from a library.  Now, at 25, I have to drive 25 minutes each way to access a public library.  Plus, there are no Sunday hours, and on Fridays and Saturdays, everything closes before I&#039;m out of work.  This breaks my heart, but I am making the most of 21st century technology: using the online catalog to request books from even more distant branches and relying heavily on Goodreads.com (LOVE it) to build up my &quot;books to-read whose titles I will never remember on my own when I get there&quot; list.  I also use it as my sole source of movies and TV on DVD, so I guess I can blame the public library for my addictions to &quot;Big Love&quot; and &quot;Veronica Mars.&quot;  Not sure Ben Franklin would approve...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Highlandtown branch of the Enoch Pratt Public Library system in Baltimore was the first place I was allowed to walk by myself.  It was two blocks from the row house where we grew up and had a wonderful librarian (I can only remember one) who loved children.  Later, when we moved to the suburbs, the library was much bigger, better-equipped, and had a far larger selection; I loved it, too, and could walk there, although it was about a mile or mile and a half.  Growing up, when I was reading four or five books a week, the library was a gallery of wonders.  Even now, I rarely buy a book, and almost never for myself.  If I&#8217;d had to rely on my own financial resources to keep me in literature, I would be in serious debt or, more likely, seriously ignorant.  During college and graduate school, I was never far from a library.  Now, at 25, I have to drive 25 minutes each way to access a public library.  Plus, there are no Sunday hours, and on Fridays and Saturdays, everything closes before I&#8217;m out of work.  This breaks my heart, but I am making the most of 21st century technology: using the online catalog to request books from even more distant branches and relying heavily on Goodreads.com (LOVE it) to build up my &#8220;books to-read whose titles I will never remember on my own when I get there&#8221; list.  I also use it as my sole source of movies and TV on DVD, so I guess I can blame the public library for my addictions to &#8220;Big Love&#8221; and &#8220;Veronica Mars.&#8221;  Not sure Ben Franklin would approve&#8230;</p>
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