Comments on: Ramadan Rosh Hashana New Moon 1 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/09/ramadan-rosh-hashana-new-moon-1/ Thu, 12 Jan 2012 08:40:04 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Stephen Cope http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/09/ramadan-rosh-hashana-new-moon-1/#comment-25355 Stephen Cope Wed, 23 Sep 2009 07:50:35 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/09/ramadan-rosh-hashana-new-moon-1/#comment-25355 Let's not forget that the passage Tonya quotes from Oppen is haunted by Pound's conflation of aesthetics/economics: the word abstracted (like data) in a bank is essentially a word the meaning of which one takes on 'credit.' The disastrous consequences of Pound's belief are well known. And frankly 'unspeakable.' Oppen chose to omit that section of "A Language of New York" from "Of Being Numerous." It's possible that he did so with Pound's politics in mind. And the politics of language in mind. And the politics of credit in mind. This puts a refurbished damper on comparisons of the present American circumstance to the last big (American) crash. Whether the next big (American) crush is affected remains to be seen. Dear poets: is it possible that America doesn't really matter that much anymore? Let’s not forget that the passage Tonya quotes from Oppen is haunted by Pound’s conflation of aesthetics/economics: the word abstracted (like data) in a bank is essentially a word the meaning of which one takes on ‘credit.’ The disastrous consequences of Pound’s belief are well known. And frankly ‘unspeakable.’

Oppen chose to omit that section of “A Language of New York” from “Of Being Numerous.” It’s possible that he did so with Pound’s politics in mind. And the politics of language in mind. And the politics of credit in mind.

This puts a refurbished damper on comparisons of the present American circumstance to the last big (American) crash. Whether the next big (American) crush is affected remains to be seen.

Dear poets: is it possible that America doesn’t really matter that much anymore?
Report this comment

]]> By: Jena http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/09/ramadan-rosh-hashana-new-moon-1/#comment-25351 Jena Tue, 22 Sep 2009 19:38:11 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/09/ramadan-rosh-hashana-new-moon-1/#comment-25351 Makes me think of the John Cage quote "language controls our thinking; and if we change our language, it is conceivable that our thinking would change." This is the kind of utopian thinking I can get behind. Less positively, Cage's observation on the power of words/syntax must also have been understood by the govt. when the Department of War was renamed the Department of Defense in 1947. Or when it was decided that individual soldiers were to be referred to as "troops" (more generic/anonymous somehow). So yes, changing the words changes things/thinking. Somehow it's easier to find military examples (as Evie mentions) than Cagean examples...anyone have some of the latter? Makes me think of the John Cage quote “language controls our thinking; and if we change our language, it is conceivable that our thinking would change.” This is the kind of utopian thinking I can get behind. Less positively, Cage’s observation on the power of words/syntax must also have been understood by the govt. when the Department of War was renamed the Department of Defense in 1947. Or when it was decided that individual soldiers were to be referred to as “troops” (more generic/anonymous somehow). So yes, changing the words changes things/thinking. Somehow it’s easier to find military examples (as Evie mentions) than Cagean examples…anyone have some of the latter?
Report this comment

]]> By: Aaron http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/09/ramadan-rosh-hashana-new-moon-1/#comment-25345 Aaron Mon, 21 Sep 2009 20:40:40 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/09/ramadan-rosh-hashana-new-moon-1/#comment-25345 Clinton Poetics of Triangulation=You don't change the word, you change the definition. That changes the thing. Clinton Poetics of Triangulation=You don’t change the word, you change the definition. That changes the thing.
Report this comment

]]> By: evie http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/09/ramadan-rosh-hashana-new-moon-1/#comment-25344 evie Mon, 21 Sep 2009 18:49:29 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/09/ramadan-rosh-hashana-new-moon-1/#comment-25344 ah... of course, the movie. : ) ah… of course, the movie. : )
Report this comment

]]> By: Jill http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/09/ramadan-rosh-hashana-new-moon-1/#comment-25343 Jill Mon, 21 Sep 2009 17:45:42 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/09/ramadan-rosh-hashana-new-moon-1/#comment-25343 Patty Duke as Helen Keller in the Miracle Worker, right? Patty Duke as Helen Keller in the Miracle Worker, right?
Report this comment

]]> By: evie http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/09/ramadan-rosh-hashana-new-moon-1/#comment-25342 evie Mon, 21 Sep 2009 16:59:39 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/09/ramadan-rosh-hashana-new-moon-1/#comment-25342 t, yes and no, in answer to the question you conclude with. (and yes, to the preposition, which can indeed handle the responsibility of nailing down the sentence!) the use of "collateral damage" as a euphemistic term for civilian casualties in a war hasn't changed the fact that *people* who are not soldiers get killed by even the smartest bombs (or maybe the smartest ones malfunction and don't go off?). but it has changed how the public thinks about such deaths. "unavoidable" (collateral --> goes along with). "unintended" (collateral --> secondary). the term characterizes the deaths, dehumanizing them to say the very least. just for example. btw: helen keller, not patty duke; but i totally take your point. touché? : ) t, yes and no, in answer to the question you conclude with. (and yes, to the preposition, which can indeed handle the responsibility of nailing down the sentence!) the use of “collateral damage” as a euphemistic term for civilian casualties in a war hasn’t changed the fact that *people* who are not soldiers get killed by even the smartest bombs (or maybe the smartest ones malfunction and don’t go off?). but it has changed how the public thinks about such deaths. “unavoidable” (collateral –> goes along with). “unintended” (collateral –> secondary). the term characterizes the deaths, dehumanizing them to say the very least. just for example.

btw: helen keller, not patty duke; but i totally take your point. touché? : )
Report this comment

]]> By: Wendy S. http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/09/ramadan-rosh-hashana-new-moon-1/#comment-25314 Wendy S. Sat, 19 Sep 2009 22:24:32 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/09/ramadan-rosh-hashana-new-moon-1/#comment-25314 Very interesting post which made me wonder: 1. What if emotional sense is a kind of reason? Then meaning is inevitably temporal, which could be seen as some consolation when words fail us. 2. Does meaning have to make "sense." Is that too much responsibility for the word, which in the end is only a graphic representation of an utterance? Hmmn. I dunno. 3. I am not sure words are the enemy to anyone except the writer, and that is only when we need them to convey/express more directly than we can through another sensation. I find that I fail to know exactly what I am saying just as often (more frequently than) the words fail to convey what I mean. Is this because meaning is, in fact, temporal? Or is it because it is so fixed that I can't ever really get a handle on it? Thx. Very interesting post which made me wonder:

1. What if emotional sense is a kind of reason? Then meaning is inevitably temporal, which could be seen as some consolation when words fail us.

2. Does meaning have to make “sense.” Is that too much responsibility for the word, which in the end is only a graphic representation of an utterance? Hmmn. I dunno.

3. I am not sure words are the enemy to anyone except the writer, and that is only when we need them to convey/express more directly than we can through another sensation. I find that I fail to know exactly what I am saying just as often (more frequently than) the words fail to convey what I mean. Is this because meaning is, in fact, temporal? Or is it because it is so fixed that I can’t ever really get a handle on it?

Thx.
Report this comment

]]> By: Terreson http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/09/ramadan-rosh-hashana-new-moon-1/#comment-25310 Terreson Sat, 19 Sep 2009 20:09:46 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/09/ramadan-rosh-hashana-new-moon-1/#comment-25310 Oh good. A series of blogs thematically related. This I look forward to. Terreson Oh good. A series of blogs thematically related. This I look forward to.

Terreson
Report this comment

]]> By: Tonya http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/09/ramadan-rosh-hashana-new-moon-1/#comment-25309 Tonya Sat, 19 Sep 2009 17:41:49 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/09/ramadan-rosh-hashana-new-moon-1/#comment-25309 Hi Terreson, Thank you. for both your interest and your comments. This is the first part of a post I wrote, and then realized was far too long for a blog post. So I've broken it into several parts. In the second or third part (because it continues to morph), I respond more directly to your reflections on place (New Orleans/Deep Souths) and violence. Am enjoying your responses! Hi Terreson,
Thank you. for both your interest and your comments. This is the first part of a post I wrote, and then realized was far too long for a blog post. So I’ve broken it into several parts. In the second or third part (because it continues to morph), I respond more directly to your reflections on place (New Orleans/Deep Souths) and violence. Am enjoying your responses!
Report this comment

]]> By: Terreson http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/09/ramadan-rosh-hashana-new-moon-1/#comment-25308 Terreson Sat, 19 Sep 2009 17:11:53 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/09/ramadan-rosh-hashana-new-moon-1/#comment-25308 This is good stuff, Tonya Foster, and a treat to read. Got caught up immediately. It put me in mind of an Antonin Artaud poem I would have first read in the early seventies. It is called "Here Where I Stand" and it starts this way: "Here where I myself stand / a man I stand what I myself do / a man I do there is nothing more there will never be anything more than that. There is no science, no wisdom, life has been lost from the day one single thing became known. I am not of your world, mine is on the other side of all that is, known itself, is conscious, desires and acts. Its entirely another thing. There science, knowledge, envy, desire and its attractions are unknown." I am enjoying your blogs. Terreson This is good stuff, Tonya Foster, and a treat to read. Got caught up immediately. It put me in mind of an Antonin Artaud poem I would have first read in the early seventies. It is called “Here Where I Stand” and it starts this way:

“Here where I myself stand / a man
I stand
what I myself do / a man
I do
there is nothing more
there will never be anything more
than that.
There is no science, no wisdom,
life has been lost from the day one single thing
became known.
I am not of your world,
mine is on the other side of all that is, known itself, is
conscious, desires and acts.
Its entirely another thing.
There science, knowledge,
envy, desire and its attractions are unknown.”

I am enjoying your blogs.

Terreson
Report this comment

]]>