Comments on: Yoga for Losers Part 1 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/10/yoga-for-losers-part-1/ Thu, 12 Jan 2012 08:40:04 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Adam Strauss http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/10/yoga-for-losers-part-1/#comment-25643 Adam Strauss Wed, 07 Oct 2009 05:45:12 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=5548#comment-25643 I'd argue that the world's not a case of "in the face of these overarching realities the differences between us seem silly and melt away"--I don't think the difference Eileen is addressing is silly, and I'd be rather surprised if it melts away (and if it does, hurray, as the world GS is describing could--not always, sometimes--be read as the closet). Just because there are differences does not, however, mean that common elements of existence should be overlooked, that difference should always, with no critical consciousness, be be priviliged. I’d argue that the world’s not a case of “in the face of these overarching realities the differences between us seem silly and melt away”–I don’t think the difference Eileen is addressing is silly, and I’d be rather surprised if it melts away (and if it does, hurray, as the world GS is describing could–not always, sometimes–be read as the closet). Just because there are differences does not, however, mean that common elements of existence should be overlooked, that difference should always, with no critical consciousness, be be priviliged.
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]]> By: Rachel http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/10/yoga-for-losers-part-1/#comment-25636 Rachel Tue, 06 Oct 2009 20:30:09 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=5548#comment-25636 I understand the point you are making, Gary, and I agree with it. Those deep universals, the ones that unite, are the ones I think Terreson was referring to as well. I understand the point you are making, Gary, and I agree with it. Those deep universals, the ones that unite, are the ones I think Terreson was referring to as well.
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]]> By: Rachel http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/10/yoga-for-losers-part-1/#comment-25635 Rachel Tue, 06 Oct 2009 20:09:23 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=5548#comment-25635 No, I wasn’t saying you are dull. My question may have been dull, but it wasn’t meant to be indirect. Of Pinsky you wrote: “This was not a spontaneous poet. Not even trying to look that way.” I had at the back of my mind this quote from Rich: “We see despair in the political activist who doggedly goes on and on, turning in the ashes of the same burnt-out rhetoric, the same gestures, all imagination spent.” I’m not saying, if you use “the word lesbian thirty-eight times or two hundred and fifty times or ninety-seven,” it automatically becomes a burnt-out gesture. I’m also not saying I think the world is an enlightened place as Gary finds it to be. For the sake of this discussion, I was accepting your evaluation of Pinsky (who I have never heard read), and my question really was: How do you avoid following into the same trap? How do any of us? Political activist, political poet, non-political poet, how do we avoid the same old ashy gestures? How do we avoid becoming caricatures of ourselves? I‘m not implying you have fallen into this trap; I’m asking you how you avoid it. No, I wasn’t saying you are dull. My question may have been dull, but it wasn’t meant to be indirect.

Of Pinsky you wrote: “This was not a spontaneous poet. Not even trying to look that way.” I had at the back of my mind this quote from Rich: “We see despair in the political activist who doggedly goes on and on, turning in the ashes of the same burnt-out rhetoric, the same gestures, all imagination spent.” I’m not saying, if you use “the word lesbian thirty-eight times or two hundred and fifty times or ninety-seven,” it automatically becomes a burnt-out gesture. I’m also not saying I think the world is an enlightened place as Gary finds it to be.

For the sake of this discussion, I was accepting your evaluation of Pinsky (who I have never heard read), and my question really was: How do you avoid following into the same trap? How do any of us? Political activist, political poet, non-political poet, how do we avoid the same old ashy gestures? How do we avoid becoming caricatures of ourselves? I‘m not implying you have fallen into this trap; I’m asking you how you avoid it.
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]]> By: Eileen Myles http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/10/yoga-for-losers-part-1/#comment-25632 Eileen Myles Tue, 06 Oct 2009 18:55:14 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=5548#comment-25632 I think when I anyone does it badly, when the response to the patter is a kind of dullness, a sense that we're being talked down to or patronized or preached to. Different work has different audiences. I was certain Pinksky was not speaking to or for me. I think (and this was the point of my piece in many ways) there's as many responses to what a person puts out (obviously) as there are pieces. So maybe you are in a sneaky way saying that I am as bad as Pinksy (but do you think Pinsky is bad - did you hear his performance, do you trust my account?) but are not willing to say that. Not so sly, Rachel. Actually your indirect question felt dull to me. I think when I anyone does it badly, when the response to the patter is a kind of dullness, a sense that we’re being talked down to or patronized or preached to. Different work has different audiences. I was certain Pinksky was not speaking to or for me. I think (and this was the point of my piece in many ways) there’s as many responses to what a person puts out (obviously) as there are pieces. So maybe you are in a sneaky way saying that I am as bad as Pinksy (but do you think Pinsky is bad – did you hear his performance, do you trust my account?) but are not willing to say that. Not so sly, Rachel. Actually your indirect question felt dull to me.
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]]> By: Eileen Myles http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/10/yoga-for-losers-part-1/#comment-25631 Eileen Myles Tue, 06 Oct 2009 18:50:30 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=5548#comment-25631 I think the idea is that we don't replace our lost universals with new ones. We reconstruct the whole idea of what a culture is. We don't have a handy center anymore cause centers and universals do the work of silencing. Our links for instance tell another story... I think the idea is that we don’t replace our lost universals with new ones. We reconstruct the whole idea of what a culture is. We don’t have a handy center anymore cause centers and universals do the work of silencing. Our links for instance tell another story…
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]]> By: Eileen Myles http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/10/yoga-for-losers-part-1/#comment-25630 Eileen Myles Tue, 06 Oct 2009 18:43:51 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=5548#comment-25630 Of all the mysterious things you said this is the most mysterious. I will respond to your larger claims like I said in a bigger post not to you but the I think larger issue of privilege blindness. But I saw your latest post and do recognize I think you are finding a less combative ground to consider it all from and I am glad to hear that... Of all the mysterious things you said this is the most mysterious. I will respond to your larger claims like I said in a bigger post not to you but the I think larger issue of privilege blindness. But I saw your latest post and do recognize I think you are finding a less combative ground to consider it all from and I am glad to hear that…
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]]> By: Eileen Myles http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/10/yoga-for-losers-part-1/#comment-25629 Eileen Myles Tue, 06 Oct 2009 18:41:05 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=5548#comment-25629 This is so good. Thanks Zach... This is so good. Thanks Zach…
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]]> By: Eileen Myles http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/10/yoga-for-losers-part-1/#comment-25628 Eileen Myles Tue, 06 Oct 2009 18:39:54 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=5548#comment-25628 I did make a pot shot at another poet and it had happened here, earlier in my blogging life. My take is we can write publicly about someone who is "big" and rewarded because they can take it. Some of the names of the awards poets get beg it, really. I also think we can lambast younger less experienced writers if they are pontificating, making large claims as if from a acceptable position of power - we all know that soldiers are political or some other weird proposition. Or if the younger writer cites ludicrous claims by older writer as if that assures him credibility. I guess what I'm saying is the world is more interesting if we write what we want and I try not to be a bully unless I think someone else is being a fool. Is that ethics or aesthetics. I dunno. I did make a pot shot at another poet and it had happened here, earlier in my blogging life. My take is we can write publicly about someone who is “big” and rewarded because they can take it. Some of the names of the awards poets get beg it, really. I also think we can lambast younger less experienced writers if they are pontificating, making large claims as if from a acceptable position of power – we all know that soldiers are political or some other weird proposition. Or if the younger writer cites ludicrous claims by older writer as if that assures him credibility. I guess what I’m saying is the world is more interesting if we write what we want and I try not to be a bully unless I think someone else is being a fool. Is that ethics or aesthetics. I dunno.
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]]> By: Eileen Myles http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/10/yoga-for-losers-part-1/#comment-25627 Eileen Myles Tue, 06 Oct 2009 18:35:58 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=5548#comment-25627 It's kind of weird to get critiqued on my style. You mean if I wrote in a conventional expository format that wouldn't be worthy of comment. What about your speak. I think your comment goes into the same difference argument that for some reason my post provoked which is that there's something troubling about claiming a difference in your writing style or your content. Especially in your case because my difference in your head is reigning and I can tell you from my years as a poet journalist it's an argument every time. One gets aloud to write "like that" or "this" in quirky little poetry journals and cultural mags but to try and use the vernacular you've arrived on in a more mainstream journal and all you get is editors trying to fix you. I've had some success in bucking this but you can't tell me I am canonical. That just isn't true. It’s kind of weird to get critiqued on my style. You mean if I wrote in a conventional expository format that wouldn’t be worthy of comment. What about your speak. I think your comment goes into the same difference argument that for some reason my post provoked which is that there’s something troubling about claiming a difference in your writing style or your content. Especially in your case because my difference in your head is reigning and I can tell you from my years as a poet journalist it’s an argument every time. One gets aloud to write “like that” or “this” in quirky little poetry journals and cultural mags but to try and use the vernacular you’ve arrived on in a more mainstream journal and all you get is editors trying to fix you. I’ve had some success in bucking this but you can’t tell me I am canonical. That just isn’t true.
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]]> By: Gary B. Fitzgerald http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/10/yoga-for-losers-part-1/#comment-25626 Gary B. Fitzgerald Tue, 06 Oct 2009 18:11:24 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=5548#comment-25626 Teri: Point taken and well put. The issue Eileen brought up, of course, is basically social acceptance of differences in sexual orientation, but what I was trying to address is a deeper level of 'sameness'. What I said above (before my little snit) was that we are all the same "in everything that counts", i.e., fear, pain, love, anger, happiness and mortality. Ultimately, we're all on the same boat. They say there are no Atheists in foxholes. I say that death does not discriminate. This sounds so obvious and banal that we never really think about it. Think about it! In the face of these overarching realities the differences between us seem silly and melt away. Gary Teri:

Point taken and well put. The issue Eileen brought up, of course, is basically social acceptance of differences in sexual orientation, but what I was trying to address is a deeper level of ‘sameness’. What I said above (before my little snit) was that we are all the same “in everything that counts”, i.e., fear, pain, love, anger, happiness and mortality. Ultimately, we’re all on the same boat. They say there are no Atheists in foxholes. I say that death does not discriminate. This sounds so obvious and banal that we never really think about it. Think about it! In the face of these overarching realities the differences between us seem silly and melt away.

Gary
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]]> By: Teri G. http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/10/yoga-for-losers-part-1/#comment-25624 Teri G. Tue, 06 Oct 2009 16:46:37 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=5548#comment-25624 Terreson and Gary: A multicultural society isn't one in which everyone is at the office or the poetry reading pretending to be the same. A multicultural society is one in which differences are acknowledged and accepted as such. The dominant culture in poetry and outside doesn't need to pat the different folks on the head and say, I knew we were all the same! We're not all the same. Respect that. Terreson and Gary: A multicultural society isn’t one in which everyone is at the office or the poetry reading pretending to be the same. A multicultural society is one in which differences are acknowledged and accepted as such. The dominant culture in poetry and outside doesn’t need to pat the different folks on the head and say, I knew we were all the same! We’re not all the same. Respect that.
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]]> By: Adam Strauss http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/10/yoga-for-losers-part-1/#comment-25618 Adam Strauss Tue, 06 Oct 2009 04:49:24 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=5548#comment-25618 For GS: I could qualify for that identity, if it counts that I read poems for at-least 4 hours each week, that I write poems for, usually, at-least ten hours each week, and that I send submissions of poems out frequently...but, and this is a personal preference, not a critique, I don't consider myself a poet: I prefer human or, maybe even better, just plain living; poetry is very important to me, but it can hardly account for all that living entails, so it seems a bit reductive. I hope all's well! For GS:

I could qualify for that identity, if it counts that
I read poems for at-least 4 hours each week, that I write
poems for, usually, at-least ten hours each week, and that I send submissions of poems out frequently…but, and this is a personal preference, not a critique, I don’t consider myself a poet: I prefer human or, maybe even better, just
plain living; poetry is very important to me, but it can hardly account for all that living entails, so it seems a bit reductive. I hope all’s well!
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]]> By: Gary B. Fitzgerald http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/10/yoga-for-losers-part-1/#comment-25614 Gary B. Fitzgerald Tue, 06 Oct 2009 00:54:00 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=5548#comment-25614 Fooked up me own book title, I did. I think I'll split before Travis beats me up. Did you know that the Harriet staff sent me a personal letter advising me that I would be cut off after 12 beers or three poems, whichever came first? Fooked up me own book title, I did. I think I’ll split before Travis beats me up.

Did you know that the Harriet staff sent me a personal letter advising me that I would be cut off after 12 beers or three poems, whichever came first?
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]]> By: Gary B. Fitzgerald http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/10/yoga-for-losers-part-1/#comment-25613 Gary B. Fitzgerald Tue, 06 Oct 2009 00:49:38 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=5548#comment-25613 And now, as everybody who knows me here expects, since I have survived another stressful Monday at work (and have gotten totally loaded to compensate), I just can’t resist posting a poem. Eileen said: “Silent like every valentines day commercially silently being about you. What a world.” I think this poem might speak to all 'preferences'. . Valentine + 30 Wow! All these years and such an ass, so many bad decisions but still you never left me. So inconsiderate, so often crass, but you’re still here beside me. You still make my dinner, pick up my clothes (carelessly tossed despite all admonitions) and still each year you happily accept my guilty February rose. Have I thanked you even half as often as all the things you’ve done for me? . Copyright 2008 – SOFTWOOD 2008, Gary B. Fitzgerald And now, as everybody who knows me here expects, since I have survived another stressful Monday at work (and have gotten totally loaded to compensate), I just can’t resist posting a poem.

Eileen said:

“Silent like every valentines day commercially silently being about you. What a world.”

I think this poem might speak to all ‘preferences’.

.
Valentine + 30

Wow! All these years and
such an ass, so many bad decisions
but still you never left me.
So inconsiderate, so often crass,
but you’re still here beside me.
You still make my dinner,
pick up my clothes (carelessly tossed
despite all admonitions)
and still each year you happily accept
my guilty February rose.

Have I thanked you even half as often
as all the things you’ve done for me?

.
Copyright 2008 – SOFTWOOD 2008, Gary B. Fitzgerald
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]]> By: Gary B. Fitzgerald http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/10/yoga-for-losers-part-1/#comment-25612 Gary B. Fitzgerald Tue, 06 Oct 2009 00:43:02 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=5548#comment-25612 Yes, Adam, it is difficult to be a minority in this society. You should try being a poet! Yes, Adam, it is difficult to be a minority in this society.

You should try being a poet!
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]]> By: Adam Strauss http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/10/yoga-for-losers-part-1/#comment-25609 Adam Strauss Mon, 05 Oct 2009 23:03:45 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=5548#comment-25609 I very much agree with Eileen: heterosexuality is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo present in this world in a strong but also unconsciously marked way, that there's nothing behind the times about continually calling attention to one's homosexuality. Every time I drive anyplace, I'm swamped by heterosexuality! It's the audience for, for example, every billboard or advertising sign which doesn't have to do with food (tho surely some food adds feature hetersex couples); the number of--in public spaces--clearly homosexualized visual markers is rather scanty, I'd argue, to the point where one, except in certain communities, might be pursuaded to believe that non-hetersexsers don't exist! Oh yah, the radio is mostly rather heterosexy too...but I'll gladly admit that I ADORE the radio!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I very much agree with Eileen: heterosexuality is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo present in this world in a strong but also unconsciously marked way, that there’s nothing behind the times about continually calling attention to one’s homosexuality. Every time I drive anyplace, I’m swamped by heterosexuality! It’s the audience for, for example, every billboard or advertising sign which doesn’t have to do with food (tho surely some food adds feature hetersex couples); the number of–in public spaces–clearly homosexualized visual markers is rather scanty, I’d argue, to the point where one, except in certain communities, might be pursuaded to believe that non-hetersexsers don’t exist! Oh yah, the radio is mostly rather heterosexy too…but I’ll gladly admit that I ADORE the radio!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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]]> By: Rachel http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/10/yoga-for-losers-part-1/#comment-25607 Rachel Mon, 05 Oct 2009 22:47:57 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=5548#comment-25607 "From memory, the Moderns speak to the partial person, the Ancients speak to the whole. I kind of want the whole of the human condition back in poetry." I think Eileen said it best in the Yoga for Losers II thread when she wrote (about being sick of the word feminism): "Don’t we ever just get to be." [Whole, human, universal.] “From memory, the Moderns speak to the partial person, the Ancients speak to the whole. I kind of want the whole of the human condition back in poetry.”

I think Eileen said it best in the Yoga for Losers II thread when she wrote (about being sick of the word feminism): “Don’t we ever just get to be.” [Whole, human, universal.]
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]]> By: Rachel http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/10/yoga-for-losers-part-1/#comment-25605 Rachel Mon, 05 Oct 2009 22:05:12 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=5548#comment-25605 “I say the lesbian thing because I’m continually (since I wrote the pieces separately) announcing my lesbianity in individual pieces because it was always an opportunity in public to stick that word in the unlikely place in the world when I’m writing an art review or a personal column or an essay. I kept seizing this opportunity to out myself and now I have the problem of putting these pieces together and wondering if I’ve said the word lesbian thirty-eight times or two hundred and fifty times or ninety-seven.” At what point, if ever, does this approach become the equivalent of Pinsky’s well honed, striped shirt? I don’t know the answer, but I think it's a legitimate question one might ask of oneself or of someone else. “I say the lesbian thing because I’m continually (since I wrote the pieces separately) announcing my lesbianity in individual pieces because it was always an opportunity in public to stick that word in the unlikely place in the world when I’m writing an art review or a personal column or an essay. I kept seizing this opportunity to out myself and now I have the problem of putting these pieces together and wondering if I’ve said the word lesbian thirty-eight times or two hundred and fifty times or ninety-seven.”

At what point, if ever, does this approach become the equivalent of Pinsky’s well honed, striped shirt? I don’t know the answer, but I think it’s a legitimate question one might ask of oneself or of someone else.
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]]> By: Terreson http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/10/yoga-for-losers-part-1/#comment-25604 Terreson Mon, 05 Oct 2009 21:23:30 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=5548#comment-25604 It always pains me when the conversation among poets becomes a fractured fairy tale. ~You can't know what I feel. I am a lesbian and you are not. ~You can't imagine what I've experienced. I am african-american and you are a cracker. ~You can't understand me. I am the product of poverty and domestic abuse. You are the product of privelige. The fracturing list goes on. Then I think of things like this. Hands down Russia's greatest poet was Pushkin. (in a whisper I point out that his great grandfather was an Egyptian (black) slave who happened to find favor with his Czar.) Jean Toomer, sort of associated with the Harlem renaissance, was taken to task for his lack of "negro" consciousness. To which he responded that he was a writer first, a black man second. Victor Hugo, France's greatest Romantic poet, had African in his blood. Sappho's poetry was less devoted to the women she loved, including her daughter, than it was to Aphrodite, the Goddess of love itself. And who ever thinks to remember that Whitman was a pedophile or that Melville was so in love with Hawthorn Hawthorn's wife had to insist upon no more visits? I read you people, with your biases and agendas, and I get again something Yeats said in a late journal entry. From memory, the Moderns speak to the partial person, the Ancients speak to the whole. I kind of want the whole of the human condition back in poetry. I understand that for centuries poetry's universals have been defined by men and by the ruling classes. I get it. Now give me the new universals and no more of this fractured, fracturing fairy tale. Terreson It always pains me when the conversation among poets becomes a fractured fairy tale.

~You can’t know what I feel. I am a lesbian and you are not.

~You can’t imagine what I’ve experienced. I am african-american and you are a cracker.

~You can’t understand me. I am the product of poverty and domestic abuse. You are the product of privelige.

The fracturing list goes on. Then I think of things like this. Hands down Russia’s greatest poet was Pushkin. (in a whisper I point out that his great grandfather was an Egyptian (black) slave who happened to find favor with his Czar.) Jean Toomer, sort of associated with the Harlem renaissance, was taken to task for his lack of “negro” consciousness. To which he responded that he was a writer first, a black man second. Victor Hugo, France’s greatest Romantic poet, had African in his blood. Sappho’s poetry was less devoted to the women she loved, including her daughter, than it was to Aphrodite, the Goddess of love itself. And who ever thinks to remember that Whitman was a pedophile or that Melville was so in love with Hawthorn Hawthorn’s wife had to insist upon no more visits?

I read you people, with your biases and agendas, and I get again something Yeats said in a late journal entry. From memory, the Moderns speak to the partial person, the Ancients speak to the whole. I kind of want the whole of the human condition back in poetry. I understand that for centuries poetry’s universals have been defined by men and by the ruling classes. I get it. Now give me the new universals and no more of this fractured, fracturing fairy tale.

Terreson
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]]> By: Gary B. Fitzgerald http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/10/yoga-for-losers-part-1/#comment-25603 Gary B. Fitzgerald Mon, 05 Oct 2009 20:59:40 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=5548#comment-25603 A) That was mean, Mary. B) My point is that people are people, gay or not. C) I am probably personally acquainted with more lesbians than you are AS a lesbian. D) Get with the program. You are actually discriminating against yourselves simply by DEMANDING to be considered different. In everything that counts, you aren't at all. A) That was mean, Mary.

B) My point is that people are people, gay or not.

C) I am probably personally acquainted with more lesbians than you are AS a lesbian.

D) Get with the program. You are actually discriminating against yourselves simply by DEMANDING to be considered different. In everything that counts, you aren’t at all.
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]]> By: Mary Meriam http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/10/yoga-for-losers-part-1/#comment-25602 Mary Meriam Mon, 05 Oct 2009 20:19:17 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=5548#comment-25602 Yeah, Eileen, Gary's a lesbian, don't you know? That's why he's an expert on lesbians. He has all the qualifications to speak for lesbians, because he is one, see. Get with the program! Yeah, Eileen, Gary’s a lesbian, don’t you know? That’s why he’s an expert on lesbians. He has all the qualifications to speak for lesbians, because he is one, see. Get with the program!
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]]> By: Gary B. Fitzgerald http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/10/yoga-for-losers-part-1/#comment-25601 Gary B. Fitzgerald Mon, 05 Oct 2009 19:40:32 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=5548#comment-25601 Zach: I'm originally from New York. I graduated from High School on Long Island and went to the School of Visual Arts in Manhattan. I see things haven't changed much in 40 years. All I can say is: "Changes in latitudes, changes in attitudes." GBF Zach:

I’m originally from New York. I graduated from High School on Long Island and went to the School of Visual Arts in Manhattan. I see things haven’t changed much in 40 years.

All I can say is: “Changes in latitudes, changes in attitudes.”

GBF
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]]> By: Zach http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/10/yoga-for-losers-part-1/#comment-25600 Zach Mon, 05 Oct 2009 19:03:33 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=5548#comment-25600 While I enjoy splitting hairs just as much as the next person, I believe the intent of the statement was clear enough. I think it's great that you work in such an eclectic and accepting environment, but I find it narrow-minded to assume that the general mindset of our culture (assuming you are American) functions in that way. I live and work in New York City, a supposed Mecca of acceptance for queer-identified people, as well as countless other groups of societies "others," and I see shit on the street every day that informs me that quite a large number of people are not, in fact, "over it." While I enjoy splitting hairs just as much as the next person, I believe the intent of the statement was clear enough.
I think it’s great that you work in such an eclectic and accepting environment, but I find it narrow-minded to assume that the general mindset of our culture (assuming you are American) functions in that way.
I live and work in New York City, a supposed Mecca of acceptance for queer-identified people, as well as countless other groups of societies “others,” and I see shit on the street every day that informs me that quite a large number of people are not, in fact, “over it.”
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]]> By: Gary B. Fitzgerald http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/10/yoga-for-losers-part-1/#comment-25599 Gary B. Fitzgerald Mon, 05 Oct 2009 17:49:38 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=5548#comment-25599 Oh, and Zach: "...saying these distinctions do not matter, ...is dangerously close to that process of institutional discrimination." This is a classic oxymoron, isn't it? I always though discrimination WAS the identification of distinctions. dis•crim•i•na•tion (dĭ-skrĭm'ə-nā'shən) n. 1.The act of discriminating. 2. The ability or power to see or make fine distinctions; discernment. 3. Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit; partiality or prejudice: racial discrimination; discrimination against foreigners. Oh, and Zach:

“…saying these distinctions do not matter, …is dangerously close to that process of institutional discrimination.”

This is a classic oxymoron, isn’t it? I always though discrimination WAS the identification of distinctions.

dis•crim•i•na•tion (dĭ-skrĭm’ə-nā’shən)
n.
1.The act of discriminating.

2. The ability or power to see or make fine distinctions; discernment.

3. Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit; partiality or prejudice: racial discrimination; discrimination against foreigners.
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]]> By: Gary B. Fitzgerald http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/10/yoga-for-losers-part-1/#comment-25597 Gary B. Fitzgerald Mon, 05 Oct 2009 17:18:19 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=5548#comment-25597 Eileen, you can't seriously be trying to use these tired old arguments from the 70's to justify your current verbal exhibitionism. I don't know where you live, but you should move right away. Where I live, the significance of the difference between gay and straight and black and white and Hispanic and Asian went away decades ago. I work in a company with all of these types of people, and more, and we not only work together but socialize together and nobody really gives a rodent's rectum about sexual orientation anymore. The only value this knowledge has in general society is knowing who not to hit on. :-) Maybe it's you that should take 21st C 101. Welcome to it. I also can't help but wonder, based on my earlier comment, how you would even know whether I'm not gay or TG. A little (arrogantly) presumptuous of you, isn't it? Gary Eileen, you can’t seriously be trying to use these tired old arguments from the 70′s to justify your current verbal exhibitionism. I don’t know where you live, but you should move right away. Where I live, the significance of the difference between gay and straight and black and white and Hispanic and Asian went away decades ago. I work in a company with all of these types of people, and more, and we not only work together but socialize together and nobody really gives a rodent’s rectum about sexual orientation anymore. The only value this knowledge has in general society is knowing who not to hit on. :-)

Maybe it’s you that should take 21st C 101. Welcome to it.

I also can’t help but wonder, based on my earlier comment, how you would even know whether I’m not gay or TG. A little (arrogantly) presumptuous of you, isn’t it?

Gary
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]]> By: Eileen Myles http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/10/yoga-for-losers-part-1/#comment-25594 Eileen Myles Mon, 05 Oct 2009 15:55:25 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=5548#comment-25594 Gary I'll say more but this is kind of 21st c 101. If you are "normal" ie straight. Everything's about you. You don't even notice it. You are the world. Gay people or people of color or women are always accused of wearing their heart on their sleeve but what's actually going on is I (they are) am stating my presence which rocks the boat (still which is amazing, but true) because we're all supposed to be one under the rubric of heterosexuality. In a way I'm announcing your otherness which is what makes you so uncomfortable. I'm not the problem. The silent empire of you is. Silent like every valentines day commercially silently being about you. What a world. You are making me so excited about my final post. Of course I've liked so many things you've said or written here but this blind spot seems actually so impoverishing for you and your world view. How lonely to live this way. Eileen Gary

I’ll say more but this is kind of 21st c 101. If you are “normal” ie straight. Everything’s about you. You don’t even notice it. You are the world. Gay people or people of color or women are always accused of wearing their heart on their sleeve but what’s actually going on is I (they are) am stating my presence which rocks the boat (still which is amazing, but true) because we’re all supposed to be one under the rubric of heterosexuality. In a way I’m announcing your otherness which is what makes you so uncomfortable. I’m not the problem. The silent empire of you is. Silent like every valentines day commercially silently being about you. What a world. You are making me so excited about my final post. Of course I’ve liked so many things you’ve said or written here but this blind spot seems actually so impoverishing for you and your world view. How lonely to live this way.

Eileen
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]]> By: Zach http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/10/yoga-for-losers-part-1/#comment-25593 Zach Mon, 05 Oct 2009 14:33:22 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=5548#comment-25593 While there is certainly a fair amount of overlap, I believe there is a significant difference between being a "Lesbian Poet" and a poet who is a lesbian. The former is a niche (and a politically important one) detailing and dissecting the experience of being an "other" in society. Someone mentioned "don't ask, don't tell" earlier, and saying these distinctions do not matter, should be ignored, is dangerously close to that process of institutional discrimination. As for the latter, of which I think Eileen's work is a good example, her mentions of lesbianism in her essays seem to me more of an aside to the subjects. A qualifier for her point of view. When writing about art, this distinction is valuable and necessary for the reader. It lets us know what we are getting ourselves into. Any irritation it provokes seems to me a reaction of some sort of discomfort in the reader, and whose fault is that? Would you say the same thing about Lucille Clifton writing about African women? Should she have gotten over it? While there is certainly a fair amount of overlap, I believe there is a significant difference between being a “Lesbian Poet” and a poet who is a lesbian. The former is a niche (and a politically important one) detailing and dissecting the experience of being an “other” in society. Someone mentioned “don’t ask, don’t tell” earlier, and saying these distinctions do not matter, should be ignored, is dangerously close to that process of institutional discrimination.
As for the latter, of which I think Eileen’s work is a good example, her mentions of lesbianism in her essays seem to me more of an aside to the subjects. A qualifier for her point of view. When writing about art, this distinction is valuable and necessary for the reader. It lets us know what we are getting ourselves into. Any irritation it provokes seems to me a reaction of some sort of discomfort in the reader, and whose fault is that?

Would you say the same thing about Lucille Clifton writing about African women? Should she have gotten over it?
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]]> By: Mary Meriam http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/10/yoga-for-losers-part-1/#comment-25585 Mary Meriam Sun, 04 Oct 2009 21:49:11 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=5548#comment-25585 <i>I say the lesbian thing because I’m continually (since I wrote the pieces separately) announcing my lesbianity in individual pieces because it was always an opportunity in public to stick that word in the unlikely place in the world when I’m writing an art review or a personal column or an essay. I kept seizing this opportunity to out myself and now I have the problem of putting these pieces together and wondering if I’ve said the word lesbian thirty-eight times or two hundred and fifty times or ninety-seven.</i> Yay for you, Eileen!! Thanks!!! Cheers and whistles from the peanut gallery!!! I say the lesbian thing because I’m continually (since I wrote the pieces separately) announcing my lesbianity in individual pieces because it was always an opportunity in public to stick that word in the unlikely place in the world when I’m writing an art review or a personal column or an essay. I kept seizing this opportunity to out myself and now I have the problem of putting these pieces together and wondering if I’ve said the word lesbian thirty-eight times or two hundred and fifty times or ninety-seven.

Yay for you, Eileen!! Thanks!!! Cheers and whistles from the peanut gallery!!!
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]]> By: Gary B. Fitzgerald http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/10/yoga-for-losers-part-1/#comment-25584 Gary B. Fitzgerald Sun, 04 Oct 2009 21:43:15 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=5548#comment-25584 What I mean by this is why do you have to wear your homosexuality on your sleeve like it’s…I don’t know…the Medal of Honor or a big red ‘A’ or something? What do these personal details contribute to poetry, after all? I think most people are sick and tired of this ‘us and them’ bullshit: gay and straight, black and white, liberal and conservative, rich and poor, cool and uncool. Why would any poet want to compartmentalize and limit themselves like that? ‘Gay’ poet, ‘Feminist poet’, ‘Latino’ poet, ‘Political’ poet. Can’t we just be poets? Jeez, get over it. What I mean by this is why do you have to wear your homosexuality on your sleeve like it’s…I don’t know…the Medal of Honor or a big red ‘A’ or something? What do these personal details contribute to poetry, after all? I think most people are sick and tired of this ‘us and them’ bullshit: gay and straight, black and white, liberal and conservative, rich and poor, cool and uncool. Why would any poet want to compartmentalize and limit themselves like that? ‘Gay’ poet, ‘Feminist poet’, ‘Latino’ poet, ‘Political’ poet. Can’t we just be poets? Jeez, get over it.
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]]> By: Rachel http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/10/yoga-for-losers-part-1/#comment-25583 Rachel Sun, 04 Oct 2009 21:43:05 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=5548#comment-25583 "and we all teach that way don’t we – a lot." Is this true? I wonder. "You can always recognize a person who teaches by their unabashed capacity to talk to themselves in front of others – for hours. There’s a kind of oblivious surface they excrete. It’s palpable, you can feel it. Of course you can never more feel it with a high school teacher but people who teach poetry in college are really good at blah blah blah." Maybe. Or maybe not. Again, I wonder. “and we all teach that way don’t we – a lot.”

Is this true? I wonder.

“You can always recognize a person who teaches by their unabashed capacity to talk to themselves in front of others – for hours. There’s a kind of oblivious surface they excrete. It’s palpable, you can feel it. Of course you can never more feel it with a high school teacher but people who teach poetry in college are really good at blah blah blah.”

Maybe. Or maybe not. Again, I wonder.
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