Comments on: Nocturne at High Noon. And the National Book Award Goes to . . . http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/11/nocturne-at-high-noon-and-the-national-book-award-goes-to/ Thu, 12 Jan 2012 08:40:04 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: pyrit http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/11/nocturne-at-high-noon-and-the-national-book-award-goes-to/#comment-26541 pyrit Tue, 24 Nov 2009 18:13:24 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=6440#comment-26541 Congratulations, Mr. Waldrop! Enjoy. (please, don't call his poetry, "stuff".) And in the photo I see my good colleague, Phil Hoose, smiling, holding his copy of “Claudette Colvin: Twice Toward Justice". Congratulations to all the winners. Congratulations, Mr. Waldrop! Enjoy.

(please, don’t call his poetry, “stuff”.)

And in the photo I see my good colleague, Phil Hoose, smiling, holding his copy of “Claudette Colvin: Twice Toward Justice”.

Congratulations to all the winners.
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]]> By: Joshua http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/11/nocturne-at-high-noon-and-the-national-book-award-goes-to/#comment-26519 Joshua Mon, 23 Nov 2009 16:00:19 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=6440#comment-26519 I think Waldrop is going for transcendence, not transubstantiation. But maybe somebody should eat his book and find out. I think Waldrop is going for transcendence, not transubstantiation. But maybe somebody should eat his book and find out.
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]]> By: john http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/11/nocturne-at-high-noon-and-the-national-book-award-goes-to/#comment-26515 john Mon, 23 Nov 2009 02:23:25 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=6440#comment-26515 "Immanent transcendence" might encapsulate the genius of Jesus' words at the Last Supper. You eat bread, you're eating God. You drink wine, you're drinking God's blood. Immanent. Transcendent. Right on. “Immanent transcendence” might encapsulate the genius of Jesus’ words at the Last Supper.

You eat bread, you’re eating God.

You drink wine, you’re drinking God’s blood.

Immanent. Transcendent. Right on.
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]]> By: Wendy Babiak http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/11/nocturne-at-high-noon-and-the-national-book-award-goes-to/#comment-26499 Wendy Babiak Sat, 21 Nov 2009 18:48:25 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=6440#comment-26499 At this point there are so many flavors of Christianity that it could be said to encompass either view, or even both together. "Christianity" without a modifier doesn't exist. At this point there are so many flavors of Christianity that it could be said to encompass either view, or even both together. “Christianity” without a modifier doesn’t exist.
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]]> By: Terreson http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/11/nocturne-at-high-noon-and-the-national-book-award-goes-to/#comment-26484 Terreson Sat, 21 Nov 2009 05:13:40 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=6440#comment-26484 Henry Gould says: "Terreson, you misrepresent Christianity, & probably all those other religions too. You want to know what “immanent transcendence” is? Go ask Blind Willie Johnson" Actually, Henry Gould, I do not misrepresent Christianity's mythology. Possibly you've read Dante. If not maybe you should. He got the categorical distinction. Terreson Henry Gould says:

“Terreson, you misrepresent Christianity, & probably all those other religions too.

You want to know what “immanent transcendence” is? Go ask Blind Willie Johnson”

Actually, Henry Gould, I do not misrepresent Christianity’s mythology. Possibly you’ve read Dante. If not maybe you should. He got the categorical distinction.

Terreson
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]]> By: Wendy Babiak http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/11/nocturne-at-high-noon-and-the-national-book-award-goes-to/#comment-26482 Wendy Babiak Sat, 21 Nov 2009 03:30:22 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=6440#comment-26482 I like the idea of immanent transcendence. Any approximation of ultimate truth would have to involve a paradox, wouldn't it? Thanks for this article, Travis. I'll be looking for the book. I like the idea of immanent transcendence. Any approximation of ultimate truth would have to involve a paradox, wouldn’t it?

Thanks for this article, Travis. I’ll be looking for the book.
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]]> By: Henry Gould http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/11/nocturne-at-high-noon-and-the-national-book-award-goes-to/#comment-26480 Henry Gould Sat, 21 Nov 2009 02:51:51 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=6440#comment-26480 Terreson, you misrepresent Christianity, & probably all those other religions too. You want to know what "immanent transcendence" is? Go ask Blind Willie Johnson. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_Willie_Johnson Terreson, you misrepresent Christianity, & probably all those other religions too.

You want to know what “immanent transcendence” is? Go ask Blind Willie Johnson.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_Willie_Johnson
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]]> By: Terreson http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/11/nocturne-at-high-noon-and-the-national-book-award-goes-to/#comment-26479 Terreson Sat, 21 Nov 2009 02:03:00 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=6440#comment-26479 What in sam hell is transcendent immanence? Any half-way tutored Jungian will tell you that the religious experience draws on two, opposing, archetypes: the transcendent and the immanent. The first finds the divine outside of nature, the second finds the divine inside of nature. Christianity and Islam are examples of the first. Shintoism, Witchcraft, neopagans, animism, even Hinduism draw on the second. Even in Shroedinger's universe the two cannot occupy the same room at the same time and going in the same direction. As they say, doesn't anybody screen these calls? And what about a poem that leads up to a dual cliche in all of 37 seconds? Nocturne? High Noon? I would be laughed off the wild west of a poetry board, to trade in another cliche, in less time for such shorthand, signature and commercial language. But maybe the artistic Providence RI scene is different than it was back in the seventies when it was heady, volitile, pretty much personally compromising. Terreson What in sam hell is transcendent immanence? Any half-way tutored Jungian will tell you that the religious experience draws on two, opposing, archetypes: the transcendent and the immanent. The first finds the divine outside of nature, the second finds the divine inside of nature. Christianity and Islam are examples of the first. Shintoism, Witchcraft, neopagans, animism, even Hinduism draw on the second. Even in Shroedinger’s universe the two cannot occupy the same room at the same time and going in the same direction. As they say, doesn’t anybody screen these calls?

And what about a poem that leads up to a dual cliche in all of 37 seconds? Nocturne? High Noon? I would be laughed off the wild west of a poetry board, to trade in another cliche, in less time for such shorthand, signature and commercial language.

But maybe the artistic Providence RI scene is different than it was back in the seventies when it was heady, volitile, pretty much personally compromising.

Terreson
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]]> By: Gary B. Fitzgerald http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/11/nocturne-at-high-noon-and-the-national-book-award-goes-to/#comment-26472 Gary B. Fitzgerald Fri, 20 Nov 2009 20:02:25 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=6440#comment-26472 "Being a famous poet is not the same thing as being famous." - John Ashbery “Being a famous poet is not the same thing as being famous.”

– John Ashbery
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]]> By: Glen http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/11/nocturne-at-high-noon-and-the-national-book-award-goes-to/#comment-26470 Glen Fri, 20 Nov 2009 19:02:00 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=6440#comment-26470 C'mon. There's no such thing as limelight for poets. Elizabeth Alexander got a good gig, but I bet most people couldn't remember her name without the help of Google. C’mon. There’s no such thing as limelight for poets. Elizabeth Alexander got a good gig, but I bet most people couldn’t remember her name without the help of Google.
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]]> By: Henry Gould http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/11/nocturne-at-high-noon-and-the-national-book-award-goes-to/#comment-26469 Henry Gould Fri, 20 Nov 2009 17:39:01 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=6440#comment-26469 Hope, someone else can probably explain this better than I can, but I'll try. To a degree, of course, you're right : he's a poet, after all. But he never grandstands. He has a humble, slightly eccentric demeanor; self-effacing, often self-deprecating. He doesn't get involved in public squabbles : he has focused on making & publishing often very difficult experimental work, his own & others'. He doesn't write big critical articles (or small ones, as far as I can see). Outside of teaching, translating, publishing his press, what does he do? He makes collages; I often see him rambling through old 2nd-hand bookstores around here. He keeps his distance form po-biz noise (unlike me!). Hope, someone else can probably explain this better than I can, but I’ll try. To a degree, of course, you’re right : he’s a poet, after all. But he never grandstands. He has a humble, slightly eccentric demeanor; self-effacing, often self-deprecating. He doesn’t get involved in public squabbles : he has focused on making & publishing often very difficult experimental work, his own & others’. He doesn’t write big critical articles (or small ones, as far as I can see). Outside of teaching, translating, publishing his press, what does he do? He makes collages; I often see him rambling through old 2nd-hand bookstores around here. He keeps his distance form po-biz noise (unlike me!).
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]]> By: Hope http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/11/nocturne-at-high-noon-and-the-national-book-award-goes-to/#comment-26468 Hope Fri, 20 Nov 2009 17:08:59 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=6440#comment-26468 I'm looking forward to reading the book, it sounds fascinating, but--how has he avoided the limelight? He teaches at an Ivy League school, runs a press, gives readings, travels the world promoting his work--how is that different from poets who seek the limelight? Who is an example of a limelight seeker? Billy Collins? Ron Silliman? Anyone who blogs here? Why is it bad to seek or saintly to avoid? I’m looking forward to reading the book, it sounds fascinating, but–how has he avoided the limelight? He teaches at an Ivy League school, runs a press, gives readings, travels the world promoting his work–how is that different from poets who seek the limelight? Who is an example of a limelight seeker? Billy Collins? Ron Silliman? Anyone who blogs here? Why is it bad to seek or saintly to avoid?
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]]> By: Joshua http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/11/nocturne-at-high-noon-and-the-national-book-award-goes-to/#comment-26466 Joshua Fri, 20 Nov 2009 16:36:06 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=6440#comment-26466 Understood, Henry. It is all pretty ridiculous. There is no magic bullet that will make people all of the sudden appreciate Waldrop. This probably just means the people who like his work will have their taste validated, and the people who don't like his work or don't care will go on not liking and not caring. Maybe they should make him poet laureate? Or let him take over Prairie Home Companion! C'mon Poetry Foundation, can't you make that happen? Understood, Henry. It is all pretty ridiculous. There is no magic bullet that will make people all of the sudden appreciate Waldrop. This probably just means the people who like his work will have their taste validated, and the people who don’t like his work or don’t care will go on not liking and not caring. Maybe they should make him poet laureate? Or let him take over Prairie Home Companion! C’mon Poetry Foundation, can’t you make that happen?
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]]> By: Henry Gould http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/11/nocturne-at-high-noon-and-the-national-book-award-goes-to/#comment-26463 Henry Gould Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:08:08 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=6440#comment-26463 We're being facetious here, but I don't want to make light of the award itself. I think it's a wonderful thing that Keith Waldrop has won it. He's a quiet poet, who has avoided the limelight, yet has introduced a unique tone to American poetry - cosmopolitan & folksy at the same time, mournful, wry & funny... He's also helped a couple of generations of young poets find their way here in Providence, & produced, with his wife Rosmarie, some beautiful letterpress books of their work (at Burning Deck Press). He has really paid his dues, & deserves this award. I think the p.r. statement by the award committee (on "immanent transcendence") was - unlike the poet himself - kind of philosophically obtuse & tone-deaf, & that's what triggered my comments above. But the award statement is not a very accurate reflection on Waldrop or his work. We’re being facetious here, but I don’t want to make light of the award itself. I think it’s a wonderful thing that Keith Waldrop has won it. He’s a quiet poet, who has avoided the limelight, yet has introduced a unique tone to American poetry – cosmopolitan & folksy at the same time, mournful, wry & funny…

He’s also helped a couple of generations of young poets find their way here in Providence, & produced, with his wife Rosmarie, some beautiful letterpress books of their work (at Burning Deck Press). He has really paid his dues, & deserves this award.

I think the p.r. statement by the award committee (on “immanent transcendence”) was – unlike the poet himself – kind of philosophically obtuse & tone-deaf, & that’s what triggered my comments above. But the award statement is not a very accurate reflection on Waldrop or his work.
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]]> By: Glen http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/11/nocturne-at-high-noon-and-the-national-book-award-goes-to/#comment-26457 Glen Thu, 19 Nov 2009 20:14:51 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=6440#comment-26457 I haven't read the book. But I feel strangely as if the book has . . .yes . . . it has read me! Is this possible? It seems that nothing is impossible for this magical book of juju. I haven’t read the book. But I feel strangely as if the book has . . .yes . . . it has read me! Is this possible? It seems that nothing is impossible for this magical book of juju.
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]]> By: Henry Gould http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/11/nocturne-at-high-noon-and-the-national-book-award-goes-to/#comment-26456 Henry Gould Thu, 19 Nov 2009 20:02:12 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=6440#comment-26456 I can't speak for Glen, Joshua, but as for me - not at all. Let's read what the judges said again : "If transcendental immanence were possible, it would be because Keith Waldrop had invented it; he’s the only one who could — and in Transcendental Studies he has." Based on this statement, I would have to insist that someone - probably several people - HAVE read the book, & with great pleasure. & if transcendental imminence were possible... why, they've done more than that. They've inaugurated the NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM. I can’t speak for Glen, Joshua, but as for me – not at all. Let’s read what the judges said again :

“If transcendental immanence were possible, it would be because Keith Waldrop had invented it; he’s the only one who could — and in Transcendental Studies he has.”

Based on this statement, I would have to insist that someone – probably several people – HAVE read the book, & with great pleasure. & if transcendental imminence were possible… why, they’ve done more than that. They’ve inaugurated the NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM.
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]]> By: Joshua http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/11/nocturne-at-high-noon-and-the-national-book-award-goes-to/#comment-26455 Joshua Thu, 19 Nov 2009 19:52:55 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=6440#comment-26455 So what you're saying is that no one has actually read this book? So what you’re saying is that no one has actually read this book?
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]]> By: Henry Gould http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/11/nocturne-at-high-noon-and-the-national-book-award-goes-to/#comment-26454 Henry Gould Thu, 19 Nov 2009 19:45:42 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=6440#comment-26454 Yes - I had your wonderful tome right here in my mind - as well as simultaneouly on my desk - when suddenly... strange action-at-a-distance, I guess. It disappeared. From both "places". Is the Pope Catholic? QED. Yes – I had your wonderful tome right here in my mind – as well as simultaneouly on my desk – when suddenly… strange action-at-a-distance, I guess. It disappeared. From both “places”. Is the Pope Catholic? QED.
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]]> By: Glen http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/11/nocturne-at-high-noon-and-the-national-book-award-goes-to/#comment-26453 Glen Thu, 19 Nov 2009 19:43:15 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=6440#comment-26453 I'm surprised you didn't mention my own work on the subject, "Surely You're Joking, Kansas City Chicken! (Adventures of a Transcendental Eminence)" I’m surprised you didn’t mention my own work on the subject, “Surely You’re Joking, Kansas City Chicken! (Adventures of a Transcendental Eminence)”
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]]> By: Henry Gould http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/11/nocturne-at-high-noon-and-the-national-book-award-goes-to/#comment-26452 Henry Gould Thu, 19 Nov 2009 19:04:10 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=6440#comment-26452 You may be onto something there, Glen. As I'm sure you know, KCC Theory relies heavily on the famous "Schrodinger's Cat" thought-experiment - since Kansas City, as we learn, is immanent in two places at once (Kansas & - uncannily - Missouri). Ol' man Waldrop, furthermore, hails from them parts, I reckon (Arkansas, to be precise). And Arkansas represents a further corrosion/implosion/reconsitution of hypostatic immanence. See my seminal work of 1974 : "Arkansas - Is?" See also Waldrop's riposte to the recent bestseller "What's the Matter with Kansas?" (I mean his 2008 book, "Pain & Missouri : Our Kansas Way of Life"). There's a lot of meat to chew on there, especially in the blue states (is Missouri...?) You may be onto something there, Glen. As I’m sure you know, KCC Theory relies heavily on the famous “Schrodinger’s Cat” thought-experiment – since Kansas City, as we learn, is immanent in two places at once (Kansas & – uncannily – Missouri). Ol’ man Waldrop, furthermore, hails from them parts, I reckon (Arkansas, to be precise). And Arkansas represents a further corrosion/implosion/reconsitution of hypostatic immanence. See my seminal work of 1974 : “Arkansas – Is?” See also Waldrop’s riposte to the recent bestseller “What’s the Matter with Kansas?” (I mean his 2008 book, “Pain & Missouri : Our Kansas Way of Life”).

There’s a lot of meat to chew on there, especially in the blue states (is Missouri…?)
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]]> By: Glen http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/11/nocturne-at-high-noon-and-the-national-book-award-goes-to/#comment-26451 Glen Thu, 19 Nov 2009 18:30:22 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=6440#comment-26451 Quite right, Henry! And since it seems more people believe in the Kansas City Chicken Theory than anything transcendental at the moment, it is perhaps THE time for old man Waldrop and his "Seven Dirty Words" routine. Quite right, Henry! And since it seems more people believe in the Kansas City Chicken Theory than anything transcendental at the moment, it is perhaps THE time for old man Waldrop and his “Seven Dirty Words” routine.
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]]> By: Henry Gould http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/11/nocturne-at-high-noon-and-the-national-book-award-goes-to/#comment-26450 Henry Gould Thu, 19 Nov 2009 18:25:56 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=6440#comment-26450 You're absolutely right, Glen. All I'm suggesting is that some people, for some time, have believed that "TI", as well as the Kansas City Chicken Theory of astrophysics, are indeed possible, & even probable. You’re absolutely right, Glen. All I’m suggesting is that some people, for some time, have believed that “TI”, as well as the Kansas City Chicken Theory of astrophysics, are indeed possible, & even probable.
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]]> By: Glen http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/11/nocturne-at-high-noon-and-the-national-book-award-goes-to/#comment-26449 Glen Thu, 19 Nov 2009 18:08:54 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=6440#comment-26449 Aren't they saying that transcendental immanence isn't possible? But if it were, then Waldrop would have invented it? Well, to extend it a bit then, if squeezing the juice out of dark matter while wearing a Kansas City Chicken suit and Lohan leggings were possible, it would be because Henry Gould invented it. Right? Aren’t they saying that transcendental immanence isn’t possible? But if it were, then Waldrop would have invented it? Well, to extend it a bit then, if squeezing the juice out of dark matter while wearing a Kansas City Chicken suit and Lohan leggings were possible, it would be because Henry Gould invented it. Right?
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]]> By: Henry Gould http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/11/nocturne-at-high-noon-and-the-national-book-award-goes-to/#comment-26448 Henry Gould Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:38:38 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=6440#comment-26448 "If transcendental immanence were possible, it would be because Keith Waldrop had invented it..." - well, in fact, "transcendental immanence" is something Christianity has asserted (for the last 2000 yrs or so) to be not only possible, but actual. & though I hesitate to speak for Judaism, I have a sense the Pentateuch (which is much older) offers a narrative of "t.i." as well. I guess the American way (since Emerson or so) involves a reinvention of the transcendental wheel, every now & then. “If transcendental immanence were possible, it would be because Keith Waldrop had invented it…”

- well, in fact, “transcendental immanence” is something Christianity has asserted (for the last 2000 yrs or so) to be not only possible, but actual. & though I hesitate to speak for Judaism, I have a sense the Pentateuch (which is much older) offers a narrative of “t.i.” as well.

I guess the American way (since Emerson or so) involves a reinvention of the transcendental wheel, every now & then.
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]]> By: Joshua http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2009/11/nocturne-at-high-noon-and-the-national-book-award-goes-to/#comment-26446 Joshua Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:29:26 +0000 http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/?p=6440#comment-26446 I've read Waldrop's stuff for years with varying degrees of interest, and I really do think this is his best to date. Is it better than the Armantrout? Hard to say. She doesn't really "transcend," does she? I’ve read Waldrop’s stuff for years with varying degrees of interest, and I really do think this is his best to date. Is it better than the Armantrout? Hard to say. She doesn’t really “transcend,” does she?
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