As for novels, maybe they could be sold as boxed duos, one side translation, other original. I’m sure this would only increase sales (sarcasm).
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As a poetic constraint, it could be interesting. But for me the problem is that it’s hard to write a Perl poem that does anything but run successfully, never mind something that does something (whose Perl meaning is) somehow related to the English meaning of the source code. A program that merely runs is the least meaningful program of all. (For computer scientists, this is literally true.) Then again, maybe it’s just that the aesthetic possibilities have gone undiscovered.
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AWP stands for All American Writers Want to get Published.

There is no excuse in Spanish, and probably not much anymore in any language, for not publishing a bilingual edition.

Also, ye editors: Translators should be listed both in the TAble of Contents and on the back cover.

John
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about competition in translation, i know i sometimes wish it were there. there are poets who rule their home turf but can’t get a shake in america. russia’s biggest thing, and i mean bolano big, is boris ryzhii. and europe is on the ball, they have a big, commercial documentary out of holland (i think) that’s been making all the art-cinema rounds, there are plenty of translators working on his stuff and publishing in british publications (even american translators), but the whole avant-e.european-lit-mafia that holds ground here in america won’t even touch him. part of it is legit politics (he was an unstable mo-fo, with all sorts of xenophobic anti-semite ideas, but was also a seriously messed up bi-polar narconaut), and part of it is his problematically formal/romantic style (which should be an interesting contradiction in terms, but is totally dismissed by avants everywhere). last time i checked, i was the only one even trying to publish my translations of ryzhii stateside, which is a shame. there are a handful of important russian writers who know what’s up, that he’s the real thing, but it’s no use. like i said, i wish i had some competition, in some cases.
then there are those cases where i just stick to public domain and/or don’t even try to publish. translation, in my view, is best when it lets itself be an intensive form of reading-in-lento, and then turns into a competition with the alien canon.
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“and the part of it that’s a poem could fall out
between the word and the bird”

and I probably was channeling the Trashmen song, but the New Jersey/Mexican poet Sandro Cohen translated the last phrase as

“entre el verbo y el vuelo”

which recoups some alternate wordplay anyhow
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i agree that the original MUST be published with the translation. i imagine it doesnt always happen because of cost? any publishers out there have thoughts on this? what about everyone else? is it important to have a bilingual edition?

also, what about novels UHM? should translated novels also be in bilingual editions?
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and thx for quoting from alcheringa–fascinating as i had not yet checked out the archive on that.

& def agree that the hubris & paternalism is a bummer. esp since i enjoy how interesting rothenberg’s ‘translations’ are (visually & prosodically).

and i agree that the issues of decontextualizing & appropriation very much problematize rothenberg’s overall project. many of the earlier ‘translators’ also have similar problems, as you know.

thx again & i have not forgotten about your first comment, which i will respond to soon.
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and thx for your kind words about my work! it’s funny–i bet many people came to poetry thru the church–def part of my poetic upbringing.

i agree re: translators passions–i was just exaggerating about the ruthlessness of translators–most of the ones i know are really kind.

i love hirshfield’s essays in Nine Gates. she was a very important writer to me when i was an undergraduate (i also really liked hass & jack gilbert).

this seems def tru: “They open the imagination to new images and beliefs, new modes of thought, new sounds.”

what a conversation that would be to eavesdrop on!

thx for your generous comment!
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ok–perhaps you & john are right–perhaps i did make up that parable and maybe–just maybe–the whole myth of the evil translator is all in my head. you know, many people told me at awp that ALTA is an amazing conference–will have to check it out someday.

those crazy purists. but i really love the class you describe! such a wonderful pedagogy to explore the full range of translation practice.

thx!
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Colin, thank you for the link. What do make of the 2000 date? Are these contests still happening?

I don’t know. Most that I’ve seen are small, personal initiatives or challenges.

By interpreter, do you mean the programmer or a program interpreting?

The latter. Imagine translating “The Iliad” from Greek to English. If you do it orally you’ll have to repeat it for each audience. Write it down and your work is more or less done.

Similarly, a computer can use its interpreter every time it runs a program from the source code or the programmer can translate–”compile”–the program once and for all into machine code. The latter is a little faster but less versatile and secure than the former. That is, to change an interpreted program you (or a hacker) just edit the source file. To change a compiled one you (or a hacker) have to change the source and recompile it.

FWIW, if the URL ends in “.php” or “.pl” it is running from a “high language” (e.g. English) source file through an interpreter. If a file ends in “.exe” or “.cgi” it is compiled machine code, which looks like gibberish to us.

And can the formatted text exist in a language besides English?

Yes, but as a practical matter most programmers do so in English, even if they don’t speak the language.

-o-
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Anyway, my philosophy is that any kind of translation is good translation, being as there’s so little of it in the first place due to poor language instruction in the U.S., lack of interest, lack of money, lack of time, lack of publishers, etc. BUT the original MUST be published WITH the translation! Even if one’s not fluent in the language, at least the shape and sound of the original should be seen!
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By interpreter, do you mean the programmer or a program interpreting? And can the formatted text exist in a language besides English?

I like when, on that link, the programmer writes: “True poets bridle at constraints, so we won’t restrict entries to any particular style or genre of poem; mail us anything you like. However, please use discretion. We don’t find large binary files poetic.”

ha ha

Also: “All poems must run without error under Perl 5.005, and entries will receive extra credit for running under the -w flag. Don’t worry about whitespace, and don’t try anything cheap like using comments excessively. We’ll be watching. Extra points will be awarded for particular poetic styles, like iambic pentameter or internal rhyme. Whether your poem employs the pronunciations of non-alphanumeric characters (for instance, $bill as “dollar bill”) is up to you.”

Don’t worry about whitespace, and don’t try anything cheap…I find this so entertaining!
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On computer mysticism–I developed this writing exercise in a recent course I taught on quantum poetics: Invent the code to the world’s first quantum supercomputer. Do not use a binary language. Do question the motive for speed.

If it runs long enough will it make a city? (I certainly hope so.)
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A quick clarification: the computer language translations I mention above are from Spanish to English, not Hindi.
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Like a queen wandering through the fields where lie the remains
of an army and who anoints the seams of her ratty ermine
with blood or thick lips or the mixture of bards and
horses which birthed her gelid realm

that’s the reek of sperm, already rancid, yellow, which dazzled
its blonde detonation or dribble – like an abdicating queen –
and lit its tits like lighthouses in a hurricane,
interminable, like sargassos wreathed in reeds

as if it were the wreck of tattered hauling rafts
or drinking birds of prey, but in whose trill
burns along with pain foreknowledge of extinction
of pain, or a vain hope, or lying, or even more
the certainty

of extinction of extinction like a holocaust
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I have heard that fable — on Harriet!

http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/05/h%E1%BB%93-xuan-h%C6%B0%C6%A1ng/#more-833

People have criticized Rothenberg for hubris. With reason.

Here are two bullet points from the STATEMENT OF INTENTION in the first issue of Alcheringa, Fall 1970, the journal Rothenberg founded to promote ethnopoetics (“the first magazine of the world’s tribal poetries”):

” – to emphasize by example & commentary the relevance of tribal poetry to where we are today: thus, in Gary Snyder’s words, ‘to master the archaic & the primitive as models of basic nature-related cultures . . . knowing that we are the first human beings in history to have all of man’s culture available to our study, & being free enough of the weight of traditional cultures to seek out a larger identity’

- to assist the free development of ethnic self-awareness among young Indians & others so concerned, by encouraging a knowledgeable, loving respect among them & all people for the world’s tribal past & present”

Well, nobody will ever have all of human culture available to study. Pride goeth, pride goeth. And, that bit about “being free enough” — unlike the actual tribals we’re studying, apparently — we’re in culture shopping mode here — much like Cafeteria Catholicism!

And the paternalism of the last bullet point is bummer.

The same issue of Alcheringa first presented “The First Horse-Song of Frank Mitchell,” along with a note about total translation. Total translation doesn’t include a dating of the poem, though, or anything about its original performance context, including the title — Frank Mitchell was the author/performer; did he include his name when he talked about his songs? No telling from what JR tells us.

The so-called total translation de-contextualizes the original to too great a degree for my comfort. “The First Horse-Song of Frank Mitchell” — Mitchell being 3 years dead at the time of publication, having lived into his mid-80s — sounds like an appropriation, not the title of a poem/song/performance. Slightly more context given for the 10th, 12th, & 13th Horse-Songs in SHAKING THE PUMPKIN and TECHNICIANS OF THE SACRED, but not much. Maybe Frank Mitchell *did* number his Horse-Songs like Beethoven did his piano sonatas, and maybe he included his name in the titles. But I see no reason not to be skeptical. Did Mitchell’s family get paid when their late relative’s work got published?
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Does anyone know anything about PERL Poetry? A friend was telling me that these PERL computer programmers get together and make poem-translations in yearly contests.

Jon Orwant’s “Perl Poetry Contest” gives a definition in its Conditions, including an example, “asylum.pl” by “Harl”, here:

http://www.foo.be/docs/tpj/issues/vol4_4/tpj0404-0015.html

PERL poems have to work as PERL programs: formatted English text that the computer’s interpreter must retranslate into machine code every time the program/poem is run.

HTH,

Colin
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I think I have to echo John Oliver Simon’s take on the prevalent ethos among translators—at least my experience of them, and contrasting it with what I’ve witnessed among poets
(particularly thos who don’t translate I’ve also heard, but I haven’t experienced it myself yet, that the folks who attend the ALTA conference are exceedingly generous and cordial, especially with newbies to the conference.

Having said that, I lament that you got that response from the editor of that translation journal. I love the notion of “experimental translation.” My sense is that–despite what I just said in the first paragraph–there is a whole spectrum of thought among literary translators: from “purists” (perhaps that editor who mistreated you was one) to literary creators who view “translation” as a very elastic term.

One of the most enriching—perhaps the most enriching—”workshop” experience was one with John Matthias at Notre Dame: the entire term was devoted to the notion of “translation” as literary apprenticeship and we did all sorts of types of “translations” including homophonic translations. It was a very very liberating experience. Up until then, my experience with translation (from Spanish to English) was fairly conventional. But Matthias workshop opened many doors for me personally—above all the work I’ve been doing with Darío these past few years.

Great post.
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